Examination of Witnesses (Questions 88
- 99)
WEDNESDAY 12 MAY 2004
MR NICHOLAS
RUSSELL AND
MS MAUREEN
PIGGOT
Q88 Chairman: Good afternoon to you
both; thank you for coming to help us with our inquiry into hate
crime in Northern Ireland. We are looking at the provisions contained
in the government's proposal for a draft Criminal Justice (Northern
Ireland) Order. I must say, speaking personally, that I was very
surprised to hear, with one exception, that disabled people are
the subject of hate crime. As you know, the thrust of this legislation
is to deal with sectarian hate, which is well known and well documented.
I should be very interested in your views about this, briefly
if you would, and also whether you think there is any difference
in Northern Ireland to the rest of the United Kingdom. There is
no legislation over here against that sort of discrimination,
hate, nor, so far as any of us knows, any need for it. What is
special about Northern Ireland in this regard?
Ms Piggot: I am not sure that
there is anything special about Northern Ireland in this regard.
The crime which people with disability experience, and I do believe
that it is hate crime, has been unrecognised in England as well
as in Northern Ireland. I am arguing the case for Northern Ireland
because that is where I live and work and have had 24 years of
experience of working with people with disabilities.
Q89 Chairman: What is your experience?
How often has this happened? It is a little more understandable
in terms of some people with a mental disability, a mental handicap.
To many people it is not the same as someone sitting in a wheelchair
and they are afraid of it; it may be behavioural, it may manifest
itself in many forms. How prevalent is this? Do you have any figures?
Ms Piggot: We have some figures
but we do not have all the figures we should like to have. In
Mencap we conducted a study in 1999 called Living in Fear and
it included Northern Ireland; it was England, Wales and Northern
Ireland. We analysed about 904 responses from and on behalf of
people with disabilities and we also conducted focus groups.
The Committee suspended from 3.50 pm to 4.05pm
for a division in the House
Q90 Chairman: You were telling us
about your experience with the disabled. Refer it entirely to
Northern Ireland, if you would.
Ms Piggot: You prefaced your remarks
by expressing your surprise that disability organisations are
asking for crime against disabled people to be included in hate
legislation.
Q91 Chairman: Not that they were
"asking for it to be included" but that I was surprised
it should be necessary.
Ms Piggot: It is necessary because
it happens and because of a belief that it is motivated in a similar
way to crimes against other people who are picked on because of
their perceived membership of a group. The motivation is in some
way similar: it has to do with the perception of difference, difference
in the way people look, difference in the way they behave or perceived
differences in those things. I am not sure that any of us understands
exactly where that motivation comes from and it is surprising,
or perhaps unthinkable, that people as vulnerable as many people
with a disability are, should be picked on in that way. Nevertheless
the experience of disabled people is that that is in fact what
happens. I mentioned the study we did in Mencap of the experiences
of people with a learning disability. In that study, nine out
of ten people reported that they had at some stage been bullied,
harassed or intimidated in some shape or form. Approximately one
quarter of those reported that it was a physical attack, a physical
abuse. We shall go on later to talk about the types of abuse,
but it was very clear that people's experience was of being picked
on simply because they had a disability and the attacks were motivated
by that.
Q92 Chairman: When did this survey
take place?
Ms Piggot: In 1999.
Q93 Chairman: How far did it go back?
If somebody said this happened to them 20 years ago when they
were young, would that be one of your statistics?
Ms Piggot: There were people who
reported that it happened weekly. Some reported that it happened
almost daily and was happening at that time.
Q94 Chairman: What about Mr Russell
and the blind people?
Mr Russell: There are not huge
quantities of separate statistics for visually impaired people,
but I led a campaign to get the amendment to the Criminal Justice,
now Act, 2003 to give extra penalties for this hate crime. We
did that based on some quite alarming statistics from the Disability
Rights Commission surveys, both in Scotland where they showed
that one quarter of disabled people have experienced disability
related harassment and England Wales where it showed a figure
of 22%. More recently, because in addition to the change in the
law which has been agreed in England and Wales, the Scottish Executive
have a working party looking at hate crime which has just concluded
a consultation, as part of that process Capability Scotland and
the Disability Rights Committee in Scotland got together and produced
a very comprehensive publication about disability hate crime in
Scotland. That showed that 47%—
Q95 Chairman: I am sorry to interrupt,
but can we concentrate on Northern Ireland, which is what our
brief is? I am sure things are going on in Scotland, England and
Wales, but in the short time we have, we really want to try to
get any facts, figures, statistics and trends, that you have which
concern Northern Ireland. It may be that in your organisation
you do not have those separated out.
Mr Russell: There has not been
collection of a huge number of statistics for Northern Ireland.
What I would suggest is that in the statistics we have for the
other parts of the United Kingdom there is nothing to suggest
that the situation is any better in Northern Ireland. You did
ask me about the visually impaired people and the statistics and
that Scottish survey I was mentioning showed that 57% of vision
impaired people have been subject to hate crime.
Q96 Chairman: Perhaps concentrating
a bit on you, Ms Piggot, because you are over there, you started
to give us a thumbnail sketch of bullying and harassment. Any
other particular forms?
Ms Piggot: People report also
attacks against their property and being intimidated out of their
houses. People have been forced to move because of persistent
attacks against them and their families.
Q97 Chairman: Because of their mental
disability.
Ms Piggot: Because of their disability.
They believe they are being picked on because they are seen to
be different and that is because of their disability.
Q98 Chairman: I am trying to differentiate
between mental and physical disability but you do not have any
Northern Ireland statistics for physical disability.
Ms Piggot: I do not have any figures
on physical disability. I can refer you to a study which covered
all disabilities. It was a study of disabled children undertaken
by Barnardo's in 2002 and in that report, bullying, which was
referred to as bullying specifically related to the child's disability,
was one of the chief concerns of children and their families.
Q99 Chairman: Let us turn to the
nature of the attacks. Any trends of statistics as to who carries
out these attacks? Are any of them associated with paramilitary
organisations in your experience?
Ms Piggot: I would not have evidence
that the paramilitaries feature heavily in the attacks on people,
but I also would not have evidence to suggest that they do not.
The people would tend to be identified as young people and young
people in groups would be the most commonly identified perpetrators
of the abuse and attacks. People also report that attacks happen
on public transport, happen in public places, so it is really
quite widespread, it is not confined to urban areas, it is not
confined to particular housing estates, it is a common experience
of disabled people regardless of where they live.
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