Examination of Witnesses (Questions 296
- 299)
MONDAY 13 SEPTEMBER 2004
MR BRIAN
CAMPFIELD, MS
PATRICIA MCKEOWN,
MR TOM
GILLEN AND
MR NIGEL
SMYTH
Q296 Chairman: Welcome, lady and
gentlemen. Thank you very much for coming to help us with our
inquiry. One of the things that has come out of all the other
evidence which we have had is that one of the best places where
we have success in inter-community relationships is the workplace
and that is very largely thanks to both the CBI and the trade
unions. This may be just I suppose because it is out of the home
environment but there may be other reasons and other lessons which
could be learnt for the rest of society. I wonder if very briefly
you would each like to give us your views on why that has been
a relatively successful coming together of the different traditions.
Start at whichever end of the table you like.
Ms McKeown: I would say first
of all tough anti-discrimination legislation and the fact that
strong codes of practice push us towards jointly tackling the
issue in the workplace. I am speaking from the perspective of
a public sector union. That then follows through with some reasonably
good commitment from levels of the public sector as employer on
taking those issues seriously. I think that we are very clear
that had it been solely voluntarianism we probably would not have
made the successes we did over the last decade and a half. Having
said that, new issues emerge for us which are around whether we
have now reached a new phase. We have fairly successfully managed
to create, if you like, neutral working environments but then
that does not sit quite so easily these days with a society that
wants to talk about inclusion and celebrating diversity, so it
is probably time for a re-working of the kind of joint approach
we have taken. That there is still the problem of discrimination
and discrimination and harassment in the workplace is something
that is still with us and manifests itself in different ways.
I think again with a public sector emphasis we have relatively
good procedures and processes to tackle those problems as they
arise. I do have to say that over my quarter of a century of experience,
local shop stewards have been extremely effective in trying to
tackle and sort out these problems before they ever get as far
as either the public stage or into the need to take either criminal
or legal action, so that has been a measure of success but I think
we are probably entering a new period. We are also now entering
a world where the workforce itself is being subject to external
threat and attack and that is a new and disturbing development
for us.
Q297 Chairman: Public sector workers?
Ms McKeown: Public sector workers,
yes.
Q298 Chairman: What sort of attack?
Ms McKeown: Well, if you take
the last three years we have had sectarian threats, death threats
in some cases to health care workers, particularly in areas that
are on what we might call "interfaces" these days. Both
individuals and sections of the workforce in the Mater Hospital
have come under attack. There is the impact of the Holy Cross
dispute in terms of people I would represent in that school and
what happens to the workforce there. Increasing violence, some
of it not necessarily directly related to racism, sectarianism,
homophobia or disability but some of it certainly linked and that
is a new development for us as a public sector union to have to
work with because in the past the people we represent providing
health, social care education, et cetera, would have to a large
extent during the Troubles been regarded as hands off or neutral
territory. There were always exceptions to that of course but
not generally because they were public sector workers.
Mr Campfield: I certainly would
concur with Patricia. One of the reasons why the workplace is
I suppose an example of where things can be done right is the
fact that trade unions obviously have the economic interests of
the employees and they tend to come from a non-sectarian or anti-sectarian
philosophy, and therefore that solidarity, irrespective of what
religion you come from, is a particular feature of trade unionism.
There has been a question of leadership being provided in the
workplace to ensure that the political divisions in broader society
do not intervene in the workplace. That has not been an easy task
over the years. Difficulties have arisen in different industries
and different parts of the public sector but, by and large, the
objective of trade unions that organise the workforce is that
there is a unity there and there is a philosophy there that goes
beyond the sectarian divisions that exist in broader society.
I think on the point about the legislation, it is important that
both employers and trade unions can use the fair employment legislation
in particular as a tool in order to persuade employees that really
they do need to keep sectarian division and hate crime out of
the workplace because I suppose from one point of view it is not
in the economic interests of employees or employers to have that
type of division within the workplace. I think there are a number
of reasons. I think the legislation itself has supplemented things
considerably and it is crucial in allowing both employers and
employee organisations and trade unions to be able to confront
even their own members with the reality and the impact that that
type of activity has.
Mr Gillen: My colleague has outlined
in general terms the role that we have played in the trade union
movement. We are happier now in the fact that the workplace is
a much safer environment to work in and it is a much more accommodating
place where people from different traditions can work together.
It has not been easy. Brian has already alluded to the fact that
we have had problems within our own movement and in our response
to this Shared Future consultation we have said we have
to address our own house first, the trade union movement, to see
that our practices are proper and correct before can go to anyone
else. We have been very successful since 1993 in working with
Nigel and his colleagues in the CBI and we have a joint declaration,
which I know Nigel will probably want to refer to later on. We
have made this point very clear in our Shared Future response:
the workplace is the place where people from different communities,
religious and ethic backgrounds can meet and therefore we feel
it is somewhere that could be utilised to improve life and society
in general. We think more can be done jointly with our own unions
and with employers, particularly in the private sector because
the public sector has made significant advances here but there
is still room for more co-operation in the private sector to promote
multi-cultural and diversity training issues in the workplace
and we think that that is the next step that we want to take forward.
Again we highlighted that in our response to Shared Future.
If the Committee has not already seen that response I recommend
that you look at it because we regard it as a very important response
to what government were saying on how we wish society to progress
in Northern Ireland.
Mr Smyth: From an employers' perspective
the legislative framework was extremely important, in particular
the Fair Employment Act 1989. As Brian mentioned, it helped companies
address some difficult problems within their workplaces, whether
that was with management or indeed with employees. The codes of
practice were certainly extremely helpful too. During the 1990s
we believe that companies, particularly medium and large companies,
developed strong and effective policies for dealing with this.
Indeed, in the consultation when we were putting together our
submission the words "zero tolerance" came up to the
whole area of intimidation and harassment. Most companies out
there, particularly the medium and large, would have a zero tolerance
policy to that. In line with the policies and the legislative
framework companies have had to do a lot in terms of communicating
why they were doing certain things and what would be the consequences
of people standing out of line. Linked to that ourselves and,
as Tom has referred to, the ICTU launched a Joint Declaration
in 1993 just to help companies create a broader general framework
out there showing the importance of creating a neutral working
environment for all their employees. I think there has been a
lot going on. We certain believe that it is not a major problem.
Certainly there are a lot of tensions, particularly sectarian
tensions behind the scene and we would have seen those coming
out in the late 1990s particularly regarding parades issues and
various things but, by and large, most of the problems I would
say are very specific around isolated instances. So good policies,
good communications, and having that legislative framework are
certainly very important.
Q299 Chairman: In the recent survey
that we had 82 per cent of people said they preferred mixed workplaces,
which leaves 18 per cent who do not. What is the way round that
from both sides in the argument?
Mr Gillen: I think probably 18
per cent could fall into a number of categories. I think a lot
of people may be frightened. We have a lot segregation in the
community at the moment and people are genuinely frightened to
travel from one area to another or to work in a certain location.
We also need to deal with the problems of mixed housing if we
are going to talk about mixed workforces. That is a very, very
difficult issue.
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