Examination of Witnesses (Questions 700
- 713)
WEDNESDAY 3 NOVEMBER 2004
ASSISTANT CHIEF
CONSTABLE JUDITH
GILLESPIE, INSPECTOR
ROBIN DEMPSEY,
MR DAVID
WILSON, MR
BRIAN DOUGHERTY,
MR IVOR
PAISLEY AND
MR PHILIP
MOFFETT
Q700 Mr Tynan: Could I ask the same
question of the DPP and the NIPB. How do you think the recently
introduced Criminal Justice (No 2 (Northern Ireland) Order will
help in the fight against hate crime? Have you a comment to make
on that?
Mr Paisley: In relation to the
DPP our role is to consult with the police, to monitor their performance
and that is simply our remit, and whatever legislation is in place
we would be supportive of the system that is there. We would hope
that it is effective in dealing with hate crime because it is
certainly on the increase.
Mr Wilson: We continue to hold
the Chief Constable and all the staff under his control to account
for upholding any law which is creative. We certainly have been
proactive in the area of hate crime. In strengthening the legislation
inclusive of sectarian incidents we have already set targets for
next year's policing plan so we will continue to hold the Chief
Constable accountable for upholding that law and any other law.
Q701 Mr Tynan: So you think the legislation
will help?
Mr Dougherty: I think the members
of the Policing Board have been proactive in trying to gauge how
successful models of supposed good practice have been on the mainland
and in terms of those being transferred to Northern Ireland we
are quite keen to learn from the mistakes that have been made
and add value to our own mechanisms?
Mr Wilson: It is probably too
early to say whether or not the legislation will help but we will
continue to seek performance information from PSNI to support
the trends we already have and at that point we can probably make
a judgment, and we will continue on an on-going basis to monitor
the performance of PSNI, and at that point we can tell whether
the legislation is helping or not.
Q702 Mr Tynan: Could I ask a further
question on the PSNI. How difficult do you think it will be under
a new legislation for a PSNI to obtain evidence which the courts
can take into account that an offence has a religious, racial,
sexual orientation or a disability motivation?
Assistant Chief Constable Gillespie:
The good thing about the benefit of hindsight is that the legislation
in Northern Ireland is different from the legislation introduced
in England and Wales in that we still have the substantive offence.
Even if you do not prove a racial or homophobic or sectarian motive
you can still prove the substantive offence, be it assault or
criminal damage, disorderly behaviour or whatever, so even if
you do not prove one of those additional motives you can still
fall back on the substantive offence. In order to prove the racial
motive it is too early because we have not had any of these cases
through the court yet, but clearly if there are circumstances
in which there is racial graffiti or racial language used that
needs to be very carefully recorded by the investigating officer
in the witness statement, so where there are circumstances that
clearly make it clear that the offence is motivated by prejudice,
then that needs to be very carefully included in the statements
of evidence.
Q703 Mr Tynan: So you think the new
legislation will make it easier to obtain evidence that the courts
can act on?
Assistant Chief Constable Gillespie:
Yes, I think it will.
Q704 Mr Tynan: Are the PSNI developing
any new training? You spoke of training in a number of contributions
you have made today as regards training. How do you indicate the
training that has been done, the changes that have been done?
Has it improved from before and is it dealing specifically with
hate crime?
Inspector Dempsey: There are a
number of things that we cover in training. Training obviously
is delivered to the police officers we establish, and the student
officers in the police college and locally at district level as
well with the district trainers. Some of the initiatives that
we have is that all student officers are trained both in respect
of cultural awareness and racism, and obviously in addition how
they should deal with victims of crime including victims of hate
crime. One of the things clearly that we need to do is ensure,
particularly with talking about new policies, that people are
aware of the impact those policies should have and how they are
expected to deliver the service or deliver the policy out on the
ground. One of the recent initiatives we have taken is we have
developed a guide to culture and diversity which is a publication
which deals with all the main minority ethnic groups and other
minority and vulnerable groups across Northern Ireland. It is
a guide which aims to create some understanding and respect for
those difference groups. It talks about issues, if are going to
a particular home, that you can be aware of. Certainly it is not
a definitive guide, it is guidance and that is what it is, but
we have issued that to every police officer and every member of
our support staff. So it is things like that that we can do, but
obviously that is not a substitute for getting people into the
class room situation and instructing them. We involve the various
different minority groups in our training, we bring in members
of the minority ethnic groups, members of the lesbian, gay and
bisexual transgender groups, and we involve them in the training,
so it is not a case of police officers standing in classroom situations
and telling people what we think they need to know, but we are
actually involving people who have their own personal experiences
in that training, and that is important as well.
Q705 Mr Tynan: So how long have you
been involving the minority groups in the training process, and
in the people advising you? What kind of training is required?
Is that a recent innovation?
Inspector Dempsey: Certainly when
we are developing training we will consult with the different
groups. We also have in addition independent advisory groups,
one for disability, one for minority ethnic groups, and we have
a Belfast LGBT forum which meets quarterly or more frequently
as and when required. Those groups are monitored by police in
respect of policy, training issues, and issues of concern to those
particular groups and we very much listen to what they tell us.
We are also developing a corporate diversity strategy as well
run by our corporate diversity branch, and that is key obviously
across that bit of the organisation as well.
Q706 Mr Tynan: Just to clarify, you
have the GLBT involved in the training? They advise you when training
is required?
Inspector Dempsey: Yes, they are
involved both in an advisory capacity and practically. We would
have role training in college, for instance, and it would be members
of those groups that would come in and participate on that.
Q707 Mr Bailey: Addressing the PSNI,
earlier we spoke about the number of officers from minority ethnic
backgrounds but perhaps more specifically what measures are being
taken to make the police more representative in the areas such
as disability and sexual orientation, as well as ethnic minorities?
Assistant Chief Constable Gillespie:
In terms of the area of disability we only have recently started
to collate information on police officers with disabilities, and
unfortunately in the Northern Ireland context we have always had
a disabled police officers' association which has been, as I say,
unfortunately a function of the situation which we have been in
for the last thirty years, so there is considerable support there
already for disabled police officers, as I say, just simply because
of the context in which we have operated. In relation to the Lesbian
and Gay Police Officers' Association, there is the beginnings
of an LGBT police officers' association within PSNI and we are
trying to foster that, but many police officers are still not
comfortable about declaring their sexuality and nor should it
be any of our business to ask them what it is, but it is about
making sure that there is an atmosphere that is conducive to people
feeling comfortable whatever their background is working within
PSNI.
Q708 Mr Bailey: Do you think any
changes in the current legislation would be helpful to target
minority ethnic communities for recruitment?
Assistant Chief Constable Gillespie:
Certainly one of the key things which happened some years ago
was the removal of the height requirement for police officers
and that happened right across the United Kingdom police services,
because that was one issue that undoubtedly indirectly discriminated
against certain minority ethnic groups. That has gone now and
as a result we have attracted some applicants from the Chinese
community, and we have already referred to one who we have already
within the ranks of the organisation, but I think we can work
a lot harder in terms of attracting applications from minority
ethnic groups and getting them to the stage where they are going
through the recruitment process. It is a testing process and we
need to look to see if there are any stages of the process which
disproportionately discriminate against minority ethnic groups.
We did find, for example, that there were stages of the process
which were disproportionately discriminating against women, and
one case in point was the fitness assessment. That has been removed
so we are alive to these issues and we will take steps if we do
find that they are disproportionately discriminating against a
particular group or groups.
Inspector Dempsey: Just to clarify
the record on something I said earlier, I previously had said
there was one member of the Chinese community and it is in fact
four members in the Police Service from the Chinese, one black,
one Indian and eleven others.
Mr Dougherty: Also, the Policing
Board closely monitor the conversations of PSNI recruitment processes—
Q709 Mr Bailey: You have anticipated
my next question which was how do you think the PSNI could be
made more accountable for ensuring that the police are more representative?
Mr Dougherty: In terms of representation
on the Policing Board it is probably the key debate in terms of
political argument within the police at the moment, but we do
have a Human Resources Committee that closely monitors the conversation
after each stage, and we are keen to try and get a police service
that is reflective of the wider community in the province.
Q710 Mr Bailey: Back to PSNI, is
there a service within PSNI which provides information, advice
and support for officers from minority ethnic backgrounds, who
are from the GLBT community or disabled?
Assistant Chief Constable Gillespie:
I have referred to the seminal LGBT police officers' association.
There is also a black and ethnic police officers' association
at the same stage. It is a very early stage but our corporate
diversity manager who has a specific responsibility to engender
these issues is encouraging that and working towards taking those
support groups forward. Having said that, there are also support
groups for officers who feel that in any way there has been a
harassment or any form of discrimination. Each district has a
liaison officer to support those officers who feel that they may
have in any way been treated unfairly, and I referred earlier
to our safe call confidential reporting line. We also within our
code of ethics make it very clear that treating people differently
in terms of their race, ethnic origin, religion or political opinion
and all dimensions of diversity is simply unacceptable. So it
is made very clear, and there is a specific responsibility on
supervisors to tackle any behaviour which is inappropriate in
that way.
Q711 Mr Pound: Are restorative justice
programmes used for people accused of hate crimes?
Mr Dougherty: There seems to be
a diversity of opinion in terms of restorative justice in the
province. Within nationalist areas it is particularly more prevalent.
Q712 Mr Pound: Can I just say that
I was deliberately phrasing my question to avoid going down that
particular avenue. I simply wanted to know are the programmes
in use? If they are, what do they involve? If they are not, do
you have any thoughts?
Inspector Dempsey: What I can
say is that the whole concept of restorative caution is something
we have used for youth offending for some time. Within Northern
Ireland we are one of the leading authorities on it. There were
three juveniles dealt with in the 2003/4 programme for restorative
caution, and certainly we are looking at that at the minute, and
there is an opportunity to use that concept in respect of both
adult perpetrators in respect of hate crime. The start of conferencing,
as it is called, is really about an opportunity to bring the perpetrator
and the victim together to provide an opportunity for them to
say what the impact has been, and we have found it to be particularly
effective in respect of youth offending where we maybe have brought
a younger and older person together and the younger person has
had some concept of the impact of what has gone on, so we certainly
see an opportunity to use it. We have used it for youth offenders
and we can see an opportunity to use it for adult perpetrators,
but it is something that needs to be delivered by somebody who
is very highly skilled and trained and who is aware of the particular
sensitivities of using it.
Q713 Mr Pound: So you are not currently
using it in the hate crime concept?
Inspector Dempsey: No. We are
using it for youth offending. We can potentially use it for adult
offenders, and the whole concept even is something that can even
be used within communities. It is not something that is tied down
specifically to two individuals. So we have a training facility
across the organisation. We also could use that within particular
community circulations as well.
Chairman: Thank you very much indeed
for helping us. If you would like to clear the table as quickly
as you can, we will get the minister in to contradict everything
you have just said—or not! Thank you very much.
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