Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100-119)
14 MARCH 2005
PHIL HOPE,
RT HON
MR RICHARD
CABORN AND
MS HAZEL
BLEARS
Q100 Chris Mole: Is there anything else
that you think ought to be done by way of giving planning and
licensing authorities more power to be proactive? Mr Caborn, you
were saying proactive is good in this debate. What else do you
think perhaps ought to happen in terms of powers?
Mr Caborn: As I said before, I
think the problem we have, with the Alcohol Harm Reduction Strategy,
bringing in the 2003 Act, we have tried to dovetail that together
to make some sense of all that, and it has been delayed in the
sense that this will not go operational until beyond November
of this year. Whilst the debate is going on, we do not see the
practicalities happening on the ground. Once it does start happening,
post November of this year, I think you will see some significant
changes. My view is that within 18 months to two years people
will reflect on this period we are going through now and say,
"Really, what was all the fuss about?" I think it will
work. I am absolutely convinced of that.
Q101 Chris Mole: You were talking about
more flexibility, yet some of the evidence we have just had from
the local authorities was suggesting that one of the things they
were specifically told they cannot do is plan a staggered regime
of closing. Is that consistent with having flexibility locally?
Mr Caborn: It is not. The problem
then is you will have a distortion of trade, if we are not careful,
and we will get ourselves into all sorts of problems. We have
had advice on this from the OFT and also the European Commission
with competition policy. What we have to do is be sensible. We
have given tremendous powers to local authorities in this and
indeed other areas. It does not just stop here. It is all about
the area of tourism for example, and many local authorities now
are looking at how they can develop tourism. This is a significant
part of developing a tourism strategy in these areas. That is
a £74 billion business in which many local authorities now
are truly engaging very proactively and see as part of their economy.
This all fits together with what we have been doing on modernisation
of licensing.
Ms Blears: What I just want to
add in terms of the staggered hours is that is an issue that has
been raised, and what we want to avoid is replicating what we
have now. Now we have 11 o'clock and two o'clock, when you have
thousands of people all in the streets at the same time, and if
you simply make that 12 o'clock and three o'clock, you will just
have the same problems but later on. In fact, you could end up
causing more problems to local residents as a result of that.
So the aim of the licensing provisions is to try and ensure that
you have flexible licensing hours depending on trying to get a
mix in the town centre. One of the other things is that in the
past almost the only way to get a late-night licence was to have
a kind of night club setting and therefore having later licences
for things like restaurants and cinemas again helps you get that
mix of premises and mix of hours in the town centre, but simply
having rigid but later closing hours could leave us with the same
problems we have now, but simply later on in the evening.
Mr Caborn: That was the Irish
problem. They just deferred it and created as many problems as
they solved.
Q102 Mr O'Brien: Has the Joint Committee
considered the cost to the Exchequer of the late-night economy,
either in the country as a whole or looking at different cities
or towns?
Phil Hope: We do not collect data
specifically on the economic benefits or changes to the evening
economy, but local authorities are reporting to us anecdotally,
as it were, that this is expanding hugely, creating jobs, creating
opportunities in local cities up and down the country. We have
heard some examples this afternoon. We certainly do see evidence
of local authorities seeing real opportunities, whether it is
to do with cultural development, tourism, the evening economy
as a whole, of the local economy definitely reviving and reinvigorating
the town centres up and down the country.
Q103 Mr O'Brien: The Cabinet Office Strategy
Unit estimated the cost of alcohol-related crime and public disorder
as costing the Chancellor £7.3 billion. Has that been calculated?
Phil Hope: There is an issue,
obviously, about the cost that it does have to try and deal with
the downside of the urban regeneration and the success of the
evening economy. That is where a lot of the good practice is in
using the powers and resources that are now available to local
authorities and others in partnership, to actually deploy those
resources to reduce the burden, the costs, of that increased activity
in town centres in the evening. It is the application of those
powers and the use of those resources in a more coordinated way,
building on the best practice that we know is out there, that
will reduce the costs and allow the benefits of the night-time
economy to come through.
Ms Blears: Those figures are from
the Alcohol Harm Reduction Strategy. What we tried to emphasize
in that strategy was that, for the majority of people, 90% of
people, their use of alcohol is perfectly acceptable and does
not have any problems. There are two areas where it is a big problem,
and that is younger people binge drinking and older people chronic
drinking—there is an issue around that as well that is never
talked about. If you think about the upside of the economy, there
are something like 1 million jobs in the hospitality industry,
so although there are significant costs to the crime and disorder
elements here, clearly there are also significant benefits in
terms of the economy generally and employment. So bearing down
on misuse is absolutely at the heart of the strategy, and that
is why we are saying use all the enforcement powers that we can,
plan the town centre in a more sustainable and mixed way, and
use the new provisions in the Licensing Act to give more power
to local people to be making decisions which are appropriate for
their communities. So there are several strands in trying to reduce
that £7.3 billion cost that you have highlighted, Mr O'Brien.
Q104 Mr O'Brien: If the local authority
want to put a levy on the industry that is causing these problems,
to try and offset some of the costs, would you agree to it?
Phil Hope: We have the Business
Improvement Districts which has been a very recent development
which has looked at the opportunities—these are business
led areas—where the businesses that vote for it can develop
improvements to their town centre, which includes specifically
improvements to the night-time economy as well. There are some
very good examples. In the 21 pilots, we have had seven successful
ballots so far, like the Heart of London ballot which covers Soho,
for example, where businesses have voted for, and are spending
their money by paying the levy into a kitty, I think it is some
£2 million over two years, to provide better services, to
clean up the extra waste which comes about as a result of their
activities in that area and to provide people on the streets to
make sure there is calm and orderly behaviour in the night-time
economy.
Q105 Andrew Bennett: Is it fair, these
BIDs? If you have got two very troublesome pubs next door to a
model railway shop or a needlework shop, under the BIDs you are
going to be asking those shops, which are right on the margin
of survival, to put in money to solve some of the problems caused
by the very successful pubs and clubs next door.
Phil Hope: If there is a particular
premises creating a real difficulty, we heard earlier about how
there are powers in place now by the police and the local authority
to deal with specific premises that over a period of time are
shown to be causing the kind of problems that they are referring
to. In general, for all the businesses in that area, if you have
a thriving and diverse town centre into which the model shop or
whatever it is that might be there, if more people are using it,
more people are using their spending power in that town centre,
then those businesses are all going to benefit from that kind
of activity. Moreover, the BID, of course, relies on a vote by
the businesses which would be levied. They have 50% of the rateable
value and 50% of the number of businesses in that area voting.
This is a real choice that local businesses have, to go ahead
or not to go ahead, if they do not wish to support a BID that
is put forward. [1]
Ms Blears: There are two other
models that we are exploring as well. One is where there is a
completely voluntary agreement to pay from particularly pubs and
clubs which is now, I think, in Manchester, Norwich, Merseyside
and one that I have heard of in Stockton. In Stockton they have
something called Operation Tranquillity where the pubs and clubs
are paying, I think, £80 a week each and they have managed
to get four dedicated police officers in order to police their
relatively small town centre. The pubs and clubs are happy, the
place is quieter and that is an entirely voluntary agreement,
I suppose built a bit on the BIDs model and, increasingly, we
are trying to promote that way forward. What I have said to the
industry very clearly is that I want to work with them on a voluntary
basis but we have not ruled out, if we do not make an impact,
coming back to that early in the next Parliament and seeing whether
or not we need to do something in a more regulatory fashion. Then
we have the consultation on the Alcohol Disorder Zones, which
I am sure you have heard about, if we get down that path that
would then be a compulsory requirement on those premises to pay
the extra costs, certainly of policing and possibly other costs
too.
Q106 Mr O'Brien: There is also the question
of employment of doorkeepers and the fact that since the question
of registration was introduced the number of doorkeepers has reduced
by, what, 75%. Some of the establishments, if they do not have
the people to keep order, their premises could close. Has the
Government given any thought to this question of what they can
do to help businesses where they cannot recruit registered doorkeepers?
Ms Blears: Yes. The whole intention
of the Private Security Industry Act is to try and transform that
industry, and certainly to try and get rid of people who have
been working as doormen with criminal records, and to ensure that
people are fit and proper people to carry out that task. I think
there was huge support right across Parliament to bring that legislation
in. It was disappointing that applications for door supervisors'
licences were really slow in the early days, despite lots of publicity.
Everybody knew the Act was coming in but because of the nature
of that industry it failed to respond to the looming deadline,
and then we saw a rush of applications as we got towards the deadline.
There were some teething problems in the SIA's organisation, I
entirely admit that. We are seeing now more applications coming
through but inevitably quite a few of those applications have
been refused because people have got not just a criminal record
but a criminal record that is not compatible with carrying out
the duties of a door supervisor. We always anticipated that the
industry would contract because you would be squeezing out the
very people that your legislation is aimed at. I think there is
a responsibility on the pubs and clubs themselves, who knew the
legislation was coming in, to make sure that they are recruiting
sufficient people with a decent background and get them through
the training in order to get them to be properly licensed. I think
there are things we can do to try and support the industry but
it is always going to be a bit of a painful transition because
it is about transforming that industry.
Q107 Mr O'Brien: Are you extending the
period of when licences can be issued?
Ms Blears: No. We have no intention
of extending that period. It has been rolling out now I think
for over 12 months so the people who have been in the areas that
have been last to be licensed have had even more notice than the
people who were in the first tranche and were very clearly notified
that this would come in, they would need to get their people licensed.
The training courses are only a matter of weeks, you are not talking
as you would be for teachers, for example, of a three year training
programme, you are talking literally of just a few weeks' training
programme. I genuinely think the pubs and clubs have got a responsibility
to get people of a good character into the industry in these really
important posts.
Q108 Mr O'Brien: Is it a fact that some
licensed groups could be withdrawn because they do not have the
doorkeepers? Surely that is not in the best interests of the industry.
Ms Blears: No, it is not in the
best interests of industry but, equally, I think it is really
important that the public are protected and the people who get
their licences as door supervisors do not have the kind of criminal
records that we have seen in the past. I am heartened now, as
I say, that more applications have come through, of people who
are now getting their licences because I genuinely think the industry
has woken up to the fact that they do need to have these people
in place. In terms of the licence conditions that they have to
abide by, they are running a business. It is part of their profitability
to make sure they invest in their door supervisors. I would urge
them to take on some more supervisors, get them trained as quickly
as they can and get them licensed.
Q109 Mr O'Brien: They cannot get the
licence, can they? The date has passed, recruiting others will
not be acceptable because the doorkeeper could not get the licence.
Mr Caborn: They can get the licence
but a condition of the licence will be eight security men or whatever.
If they do not provide them they will be in breach of the licence.
Q110 Mr O'Brien: The doorkeepers are
the people who will be fulfilling that responsibility, the date
for applying for a licence has passed.
Mr Caborn: No, it is open now.
It is open from 7 February, which was the first day, through to
November for them to apply for the licence.
Q111 Mr O'Brien: That was the point I
was making about extending it.
Mr Caborn: There are two licences.
There is the SIA and then there is one, the licence for 2003.
As far as the licence for a pub is concerned, under the 2003 Act
the first date was 7 February and that will go through to November
when they will apply for their new licence. Can I say, also, on
this question of dealing with troublesome pubs, I want to emphasise—and
this is where there is flexibility—if there are problems
with troublesome pubs, particularly as Mr Bennett referred to,
then if there are complaints against them you can immediately
vary the licence. If there are complaints from the police, residents,
a local business next door to it, and they are sustained, then
they can be brought in and they can vary the licence. If they
want to say they have to close at 10 o'clock at night for the
next six months they can do that. The licence authority has got
the power to vary the licence based upon the representations being
made.
Q112 Mr O'Brien: Should the Government
allow local authorities to ban price-discounting, happy hours,
or any other system of promoting binge drinking?
Ms Blears: Certainly we believe
that some of the promotions which have gone on in the past, and
may still be going on in some places now, are unacceptable. The
kind of promotions such as "all you can drink for £8"
which was one I found in Hartlepool I think.
Q113 Andrew Bennett: Did you try it!
Ms Blears: No, the other one I
found was "girls drink free" and I did not try that
one either! Clearly those kinds of promotions are really about
people drinking as much as they can in as short a time as possible
and that really can lead to binge drinking problems. What we are
trying to promote there is for the industry itself to issue its
own guidance to the pubs and clubs saying "These kinds of
promotions are unacceptable". We had some fairly tense discussions
with the Office of Fair Trading because there were competition
issues around the idea of minimum pricing but I am pleased to
say we have got to the position now where that internal industry
guidance can be issued, and we are working on it now. I think
a couple of the big chains—I think Wetherspoons and Yates—have
already said those kinds of promotions are not going to take place
in their premises, and I am absolutely delighted about that. There
are some promotions which are perfectly legitimate to have, and
I know some places have even done promotions on soft drinks during
student fresher week. I am not quite sure how they have gone down
but I am sure there are some promotions which are legitimate.
Q114 Sir Paul Beresford: We received,
at least anecdotal evidence, that many of the youngsters go and
buy a cheap bottle of vodka and swallow that before they even
leave because the prices are too high in the pubs.
Ms Blears: I think there is a
problem with people getting alcohol from off-licences and whenever
we have done our enforcement campaigns we have seen particularly
under age youngsters being able to purchase alcohol in off-licences
as well as on-licences. Part of our strategy is to make sure we
include the off-licence sector in everything we do, and certainly
in terms of promotions as well, if they are irresponsible promotions
to try, and get those out of the industry. Particularly around
the under age drinking, in our consultation Drinking Responsibly,
which we have just issued, we float the idea of having powers
to close premises immediately if they are serving to under age
youngsters. At the moment we can close them if they are noisy
and disorderly but we cannot close them if they are serving to
under age. I spoke to somebody recently who had been in America,
where people are automatically asked for their identification,
and we are trying to promote something similar "No ID, No
Sale" but in America they said that basically they would
lose their licence or be closed down for two or three weeks if
they sold to one person under age and they took it really seriously.
I would like to get us to a position where people, both in off
licences and on licences, really do think "The next person
who walks through my door could be the person who if I serve them
under age, it is going to close my premises". I think that
would get us a step change in the atmosphere we are trying to
create around this area.
Q115 Sir Paul Beresford: Is there any
comeback on the purchaser rather than the seller?
Ms Blears: Yes, we have just brought
in a fixed penalty notice, I think, last week, we had the Statutory
Instrument here, for attempting to purchase alcohol under age.
That will be a fixed penalty notice.
Q116 Andrew Bennett: One of the areas
the Select Committee report highlighted, and one that the Government
seems to agree with, is the need to diversify the night-time economy.
Can you give us some examples of where that has succeeded so far?
Phil Hope: I think a number of
cities are taking this quite seriously. I think Leeds is one example
where the town centre management has managed to attract a more
diverse audience into the city centre. They are holding family
friendly events, parades, markets and concerts. I think we have
got some examples where the attempt to use the powers which are
available, to use the planning guidance and to look at how the
town centre could be developed, have been quite successful in
terms of diversification.
Q117 Andrew Bennett: The way in which
local authorities are supposed to be developing their planning
system, there is supposed to be a series of issues on which local
authorities set their plans. Would you expect most local authorities
to have a strategy for the evening economy?
Phil Hope: The new planning framework
requires a local authority to develop a local development framework
which allows it, in the planning documents they produce, to identify
a particular area as an action plan, which could include typically
a town centre.
Q118 Andrew Bennett: Would you expect
them to do that sometimes?
Phil Hope: It would be a matter
for them, it is not a matter for us at the centre of Government
to tell local government how to run their areas. The powers and
the planning framework are in place, including the planning guidance
for local authorities on developing a strategic approach to managing
their town centres including the evening economy. It is not just
managing the evening economy because in the town centre, as we
have been discussing earlier, there is a day-time, twilight, and
an evening economy, there is a transition, it may be late-night
shopping, there is diversity. It is those local authorities that
have now got new powers and the ability for them to do their own
assessment of their own local area to decide which combination
is right for them.
Q119 Andrew Bennett: What about late-night
shopping? Do you see that as one of the things which should be
developed in town centres?
Phil Hope: Again, it would be
a matter for the local authority to decide the direction that
it wants its area to go in. I can see, certainly, how late-night
shopping, along with other tourism activities—the way I
have just been describing what has been happening in Leeds—is
a good way to bring about the renaissance of those town centres,
it is what people do enjoy and do welcome. The strategic approach
is to look at all those options and to decide what combination
suits their particular town centre.
Mr Caborn: It is true, Mr Bennett,
these things will not happen overnight, it will take a period
of time for a change of culture and attitude. If one looks across
the pubs over the last five, 10, 15, 20 years, you will see a
significant change, probably there are more that you would call
a restaurant than you would call a pub now. Many of us go out
and enjoy them. I take my grandkids down into a pub, there is
no smoking and you get a very nice meal. In fact my mother told
me the other day she was coming home from a party—she is
88 years of age, teetotal, and a Methodist—and she called
in All Bar One and had a lovely salad. I thought "Crikey,
in the middle of Sheffield there is my mother at 88 with Flo,
her friend", she said it was a very nice salad she had but
she did not have any alcohol. That epitomised to me—this
was about five or six o'clock in the evening—there is that
diversification coming in now. It will take a little while to
feed through but I think what we are putting in now is the right
architecture to make that happen over the medium to long term.
1 A successful BID vote required a majority of votes
cast and those voting in favour must also represent a majority
of the rateable value of the businesses which voted. Back
|
