Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100-119)
DAME MAVIS
MCDONALD
DCB, MR PETER
UNWIN AND
MR NEIL
KINGHAN
12 OCTOBER 2004
Q100 Mr Betts: Well, exactly. You can
have a cash increase—
Mr Unwin: On Liveability the actual
real increase is 2.7% per year. On Fire and Resilience the average
real increase is 23% per year.
Q101 Mr Betts: So would there be any
areas where there are service reductions then?
Dame Mavis McDonald: I think on
Neighbourhood Renewal for which £525 million is a flat cashline
there is a real terms decrease but that is on quite a significant
budget, and it is about the level at which we are looking for
efficiency savings.
Q102 Mr Betts: Is that the only area?
Mr Unwin: We have the planning
and delivery grant down 2.9% but that is through increased fees
rather than a reduction of the grant, so that is a reduction of
the net figure, but it is being met by increased fees on planning.
The same grant will be available to local authorities.
Q103 Sir Paul Beresford: Is your 2.5%
a year in real or cash terms?
Mr Kinghan: For local government,
you mean?
Q104 Sir Paul Beresford: No. Overall.
Mr Unwin: That is a real terms
decrease, so it is flat cash approximately.
Q105 Sir Paul Beresford: Except when
you have done more with a certain amount of money so the taxpayer
still does not see a saving.
Mr Unwin: That is an explicit
aim of the government's efficiency review overall. The purpose
of the efficiency review is to deliver more services and output
to the frontline, so the Treasury have been explicit in saying
that the efficiency review in some cases will provide savings
in actual cash and in other cases will provide additional outputs
in the frontline for the same cash.
Sir Paul Beresford: I am not sure the
taxpayer will feel great about that when he signs the cheque.
Q106 Mr Betts: Coming back to local government
savings, my colleagues in local government do seem to think that
the situation is a bit confused, particularly with the passporting
issues that go on from other government departments, and there
is the feeling around that education gets the money passported
straight through and they get their increases, with the same for
social services, and therefore local government efficiency savings
have to come out of the rest of the areas, and there is enormous
pressure on the other services to find savings which sometimes
are not there.
Mr Kinghan: I certainly have not
heard that argument. In fact, the savings that we are going for,
£6.5 billion over three years, do depend on savings across
the board. Nobody is exempt from that, so although the education
expenditure is increasing the DFES is working out and will be
discussing with local government how it is going to achieve savings
on education spending—and I do not mean savings reducing
expenditure, I mean efficiency gains, so as I said it is across
the board. Education expenditure is not exempt from the same ambition.
Q107 Mr Betts: But local authorities
have no power to direct schools to make efficiency savings, have
they?
Mr Kinghan: They do not have power
to direct but they do obviously take part in discussions with
schools and the schools will be involved in those discussions
as well about how there will be more efficient use of resources
in the future.
Q108 Mr Betts: But do we not need new
changes with the committed budgets on a three year basis for schools?
The LEAs have been almost completely bypassed by the public system,
have they not?
Mr Kinghan: The government has
decided that it will clarify the relationship between government,
local government and schools if there is a dedicated schools budget,
as it will be called, but—
Q109 Chairman: When?
Mr Kinghan: When will that be
introduced?
Q110 Chairman: No. When will it be clarified?
Mr Kinghan: Well, we are trying
to clarify it all the time but—
Q111 Chairman: So it is not going to
be an announcement; it is just an on-going process?
Mr Kinghan: Well, as you know,
there has been an announcement that there will be a dedicated
schools budget. That was part of the DFES's five year plan that
was published in—
Q112 Chairman: It did not exactly produce
clarity and ease of understanding, though, did it?
Mr Kinghan: Well, you probably
need to take that up with the Department for Education and Skills.
The intention is to introduce a dedicated schools budget but that
will not mean that local education authorities do not have a significant
role in future and, indeed, the DFES has been discussing with
local education authorities the nature of that role and how they
will influence the way in which schools behave, the strategic
role they will have in relation to schools.
Q113 Mr Betts: How much detailed consultation
was there with your department before the announcement about the
change in relation to schools?
Mr Kinghan: I do not think I can
comment on internal government discussions but there certainly
were discussions between—
Q114 Mr Betts: It did not sound as though
you had been involved in any clarification procedure because you
are still working on it, are you not?
Mr Kinghan: It is true that the
policies are still being developed and when the DfES announced
its plan it will be working through those policies with us and
local government.
Q115 Sir Paul Beresford: So you and your
department are waiting for clarification too, are you?
Mr Kinghan: I do not think I said
that!
Mr Betts: We all are, by the sounds of
things.
Q116 Sir Paul Beresford: Can you clarify
it for us?
Mr Kinghan: The DfES announced
what its plans would be in broad terms but they need to be worked
through. I think that is understandable—
Q117 Sir Paul Beresford: So you are waiting
for clarification?
Mr Kinghan: No. We are working
with them on how the new arrangements will work.
Q118 Mr Betts: We have had an announcement
that "In principle this is how it is going to operate",
and now how it is going to operate, but the details are still
being worked out?
Mr Kinghan: Yes. Absolutely.
Q119 Mr Betts: Should you not get that
right before the announcement?
Mr Kinghan: Well, in order to
work out how a new system is going to operate you need to discuss
that with the people involved but you need to make a decision
in advance that you are going to have a new system and then you
work through how the system—
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