Examination of Witnesses (Questions 320-339)
RT HON
KEITH HILL
MP, RT HON
NICK RAYNSFORD
MP, MR JOE
MONTGOMERY AND
MR ANDREW
WELLS
19 OCTOBER 2004
Q320 Chairman: Can I press you on this
Index of Multiple Deprivation. It is based on the most recent
Census figures, is it not?
Mr Montgomery: In fact, it was
published too quickly after the Census results to take full account
of the Census figures. We are trying to take proper account of
any significant changes that came out of the Census, because you
will understand that this is a gargantuan piece of work undertaken
for and with us by Oxford University.
Q321 Chairman: Yes, but quite a few of
the Census figures turned out to be wrong, did they not? For instance,
the city of Manchester ended up with an additional 25,000 population
being added in when the Census figures were reviewed. As far as
these small areas of deprivation are concerned, relatively small
omissions perhaps of single households or those sorts of groups
could have quite a significant impact on whether an area meets
the criteria for being deprived or not. Are you happy that the
statistics really are strong enough to build up the whole of this
allocation of resources on that basis?
Mr Montgomery: There is no complacency
about the adequacy of the data streams here. Speaking specifically
about the instance you have mentioned there, Manchester, Manchester
is in any case by far and away the largest recipient of NRF, by
itself it gets the single largest allocation and might continue
to get support. If there is any refinement required to our understanding
of the nature of the deprivation in Manchester, certainly we will
work on that with and through ONS. We will be vigilant about any
amendments at the margin.
Q322 Mr Sanders: Turning to the Fire
Service, can you tell the Committee the difference that has been
made by the establishment of the Civil Resilience Directorate
which was established in June 2003?
Mr Raynsford: The purpose of the
Civil Resilience Directorate is to ensure a co-ordinated approach
to our responsibilities both in respect of the Fire and Rescue
Service and the wider issues of resilience, where we have a responsibility
for regional resilience planning in each of the English regions.
Clearly it is important that those two are planned and co-ordinated
together because many of the issues which are important to resilience
regionally and locally are equally relevant to the Fire Service.
Much of the new investment going into the Fire Service under the
New Dimensions programme, new mass decontamination equipment and
urban search and rescue equipment, is absolutely crucial to meeting
our resilience obligations. Really it was just a rationalisation
within our Department to ensure that we were operating in a joined-up
way.
Q323 Mr Sanders: You have failed to meet
some of your targets for Fire and Rescue for the past year. What
difference are Government initiatives, such as funding the Arson
Reduction programme, making in assisting you to reach those targets?
Mr Raynsford: You are quite right
and I think you should put it into context, that over the last
two years the Fire Service has seen an extremely troubled period
with a very bitter industrial dispute. Against that background,
I think it is not surprising that some of the objectives and targets
have not been met. There were other issues relating to non-accidental
fires and deaths through fires in domestic premises where we changed
the targets, and that has been the subject of very detailed discussion
between us on a previous occasion. We are confident that the new
arrangements in place will be met. We are doing a lot to try to
ensure, through the Arson Control Forum and other similar arrangements,
that action is taken to reduce the number of non-accidental fires.
There are real problems associated with, for example, the huge
increase in the number of abandoned vehicles, which are a natural
target for vandalism and for fire-raisers if they choose to seize
that opportunity. That is where a lot of our focus is, on trying
to take action on specifics where we can reduce the number of
non-accidental fires.
Q324 Christine Russell: Can I ask you
about three particular targets that you failed to meet, which
were the recruitment of women, recruitment of ethnic minorities
and a reduction in the number of retirements on the grounds of
ill-health. What are you doing to address those three?
Mr Raynsford: Yes, you are absolutely
right, and my earlier response again I think is relevant, that
against the background of the industrial dispute over 2002-03,
2003-04 and even into this year, 2004-05, it is hardly surprising
that we have not made as much progress as we would have liked
on matters to do with diversity and attracting new recruits into
the industry. We are making good progress. There has been a specific
recruitment initiative which we undertook this summer to try to
ensure that we were doing our bit to help Fire and Rescue authorities
to attract more women and ethnic minorities into the Service.
Q325 Christine Russell: Did it work?
Mr Raynsford: It is too early
to say because it has only just been launched, but I am hopeful
that we can turn around an industry which traditionally has had
a very white, very male characteristic.
Q326 Christine Russell: Would you agree,
and a very macho culture too?
Mr Raynsford: Yes, and a very
macho culture. There needs to be a change and I think that is
entirely compatible with the much greater degree of community
involvement which is implicit in the policy set out in our White
Paper, "Our Fire and Rescue Service", and which now
very much drives the reform programme in the Fire Service. The
greater the degree of community involvement the more one will
see the need for the Fire and Rescue Service to be more representative
of the community it serves. To give just one illustration, I was
terribly heartened on a visit to Merseyside a year or so ago to
see the very effective work that they are doing in community fire
safety in getting smoke alarms into a much larger number of houses
than otherwise would have them, in particular, focusing on ethnic
minority groups. An officer of Chinese ethnic origin in the Merseyside
Fire and Rescue Service was playing a critical role in ensuring
that community was reached, and there are other examples of a
similar nature. There is good work. We need to spread the exemplars,
we need to get that culture throughout the whole Fire and Rescue
Service rather than just individual examples of good practice
in isolated locations.
Q327 Christine Russell: What about the
physical requirements, because, particularly in the case of women,
that is where many fail; are you looking at the entry requirements?
Mr Raynsford: There are changes,
yes, to recruitment and training arrangements and other, more
practical programmes. For example, the integrated clothing scheme,
designed to ensure that the kit which fire-fighters wear is designed
in such a way that it is appropriate for women as well as for
male fire-fighters. There are a number of initiatives of that
nature ongoing, to try to ensure that there are no barriers which
would prevent women and others whom we might want to attract into
the Service becoming fire-fighters, also to perform other functions
in the Service.
Q328 Christine Russell: You do accept
that there are some people in the Fire Service who still believe
you have to be a weight-lifter in order to put in a smoke alarm?
Mr Raynsford: I have never been
convinced of that logic.
Q329 Chairman: All the targets which
you have just been talking about for the Fire Service are all
things that you are dependent on other people doing to meet your
targets, but the review of the Retained Fire Service, that was
one of the things that you were doing. Where are we up to with
this review of the Retained Service?
Mr Raynsford: The Retained Service
is still below par, no question. We have been putting a lot of
focus on how we can give greater support to retained fire-fighters.
The terms of the settlement that was reached to bring an end to
the dispute, as you know, do involve a number of measures designed
to improve both the pay and the conditions of retained fire-fighters.
We are exploring the scope for pension arrangements for retained
fire-fighters as part of the reform of the pension scheme. Also
we are looking closely at the experience of some areas which have
had better success than others in attracting more retained fire-fighters
into the Service. There is a lot of work going on. I would not
pretend at this stage that we have cracked the problem, we have
not, but there is a real commitment to bring more retained fire-fighters
into the Service.
Q330 Chairman: Could we have a note perhaps
on the progress you have made on all of those things?
Mr Raynsford: I am more than happy
to give a note, but what I have said has broadly encompassed the
position.
Q331 Mr Betts: Planning Delivery Grants:
is there evidence that we are employing more planners now and
training more planners as a result?
Mr Hill: Certainly we are training
more planners. You will recall that earlier this year I was pleased
to announce a bursary scheme for 144 postgraduate planners and
that has proved immensely successful, and the full uptake for
this year, which is half that number, has been used. A number
of universities with planning departments are reporting a significant
increase in the number of postgraduate planners, a doubling in
some cases, so we feel that there is some evidence that the number
of planners being trained is rising. I would not ascribe that
simply to the bursary scheme, I think it is actually because people
recognise increasingly, perhaps particularly in geography departments,
that now we are in the midst of what is virtually a housing and
regeneration revolution in this country. As far as PDG is concerned,
recently we received the report of Andersen into the working of
PDG. That confirmed our belief that although not ring-fenced the
overwhelming amount of grant had been ploughed back into the planning
system, 98%, which we very much welcome, of the reinvestment in
the planning service. The Andersen survey revealed that 46% went
into staffing, so I think our expectation is that both salaries
and the numbers of planners have been rising. There is an issue
about status, as you know, in the planning profession as well,
and 26% was being invested in IT with the residue going to other
planning purposes. We think that actually this scheme is working
and it is worth observing that in the last two years the proportion
of planning departments meeting their targets has doubled, it
has gone up from 20% to 40%. I do not think we should be entirely
over the moon but we believe that we are on target to meet our
development control targets for the year 2006.
Q332 Mr Betts: What is presented to me
is that while some authorities may play the game absolutely and
will try to improve their performance by genuinely turning round
planning applications more quickly, others might take the view
that if you have got a particularly tricky application it will
take longer than the target time to deal with that particular
application, so the best way to hit the target is to refuse it
and let somebody else deal with it. Some developers will say there
is evidence that is happening in some authorities?
Mr Hill: I believe that is quite
correct and we are on the case and in some cases we have withdrawn
grant.
Q333 Chairman: Can you give an example?
You have withdrawn grant from whom?
Mr Hill: I will give you a note
on that.
Q334 Chairman: We have just spent quite
a long time going over the PSA targets. Do you think they are
fair on the Department?
Mr Raynsford: A general comment.
We take responsibility for them. We recognise that some of them
are extremely challenging. I think PSA 2, Regional Economic Performance,
everyone would recognise is an incredibly challenging target.
We are committed to those targets, we have signed up to them and
we are working to ensure that we deliver them.
Q335 Chairman: Do you think perhaps C-
or a D+ would be a reasonable assessment of your performance against
those targets?
Mr Raynsford: No, I do not at
all. I think we have made very good progress on a number of the
targets. Others, as I say, are particularly challenging and under
PSA 2 we are not expected to be seeing results until 2006. That
is the first point of time in which we are beginning to measure
progress, and that is a measure of just how difficult and challenging
that is.
Q336 Chairman: We have just been through
all the Fire ones and you have missed almost every single one
of those. If we take things like tenant satisfaction with landlords,
we have slipped there, have we not?
Mr Hill: Tenant satisfaction with
landlords, we have slipped there; that is a new one on me. Where
have you got that from, Chairman?
Q337 Chairman: The 2000 SDA target: "To
maintain or improve the proportion of customers who tell the Survey
of English Housing that they are very, or fairly, satisfied with
the service provided by their social landlord." The satisfaction
rate went down from 69 to 68%?
Mr Hill: Actually, it is the first
time I have ever seen that, I have to confess, and I will certainly
follow up on that.
Q338 Chairman: We have had all these
stock transfers, with all these promises about how performance
was going to be improved and yet actually satisfaction rates went
down?
Mr Hill: Chairman, I can assure
you that, without exception, where you have transfers and ALMOs
in place satisfaction ratings increase. Far be it from me to point
the finger, but I can only presume this is the performance of
the local authorities.
Mr Raynsford: Could I highlight
perhaps just one or two other PSAs, lest the impression be given
that we are not meeting PSA targets. On PSA 3, Elected Regional
Assemblies, we are in the process of meeting that target, a referendum
is taking place at the moment. On PSA 4, we have successfully
introduced Comprehensive Performance Assessment; there is clear
evidence that is helping to drive progressive improvement in local
authority performance. E-local government has been rolled out,
with 99% of authorities now telling us that the target will be
met. There are a number of success stories there and it would
be quite wrong to suggest that generally we are not meeting our
PSA targets. Equally, we have had difficulties. I have been quite
open about the particular difficulties with the Fire and Rescue
Service, following a particularly difficult industrial dispute.
Also I have acknowledged the very challenging nature of PSA 2
in relation to Regional Economic Performance.
Mr Hill: On my targets, Chairman,
if I might draw your attention to the good progress that we have
been making on PSA 5, Housing Markets, where I think we could
be allocated a beta-plus. On Decent Homes, we are on track broadly
to meet that target for 2010, beta-double plus. On PSA 6, Planning,
we are on course to meet the targets, so I think that is an alpha.
Q339 Chairman: No doubt you are pleased
with yourselves. Do you think these targets had any influence
on the Spending Review?
Mr Raynsford: It is an interesting
question. I think, undoubtedly, the Spending Review did take account
of the importance of meeting targets in some of the key areas
concerned. Keith has referred already to the substantial additional
investment which has been guaranteed in relation to both the Pathfinders,
to tackle the areas of low demand, and investment in the growth
areas. I could refer to the commitment to continuing to resource
local government with above-inflation settlements in the Spending
Review period to continue to drive forward that process of improvement
of local government performance.
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