Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80-85)
1 NOVEMBER 2004
COUNCILLOR ADRIAN
DENNIS AND
MR PETER
BABB
Q80 Chris Mole: That takes me nicely
to what I want to ask you. Do you think CABE gives sufficient
weight to the interests of the historic environment, or do you
think they are a bit cavalier in their attitudes towards it, or
do you think it is your responsibility to take what they give
you and then what English Heritage say alongside that?
Mr Babb: My impression is that
CABE do have an understanding of the historic environment in the
context within which schemes generally are developed. Part of
the onus sometimes though is on the local planning authority and
the developer to ensure that contextual position is put across
at meetings. I do think that, in looking further at this, the
local planning authority itself obviously consults with English
Heritage and it has to make judgments, again, about the weight
to be accorded to those comments which come back. Ultimately,
it is the local planning authority's responsibility to try to
weigh those judgments and determine the scheme.
Q81 Christine Russell: I am sorry, Councillor
Dennis, all these questions now seem to be going to Mr Babb, because
I am going to ask him a question. You have been very positive
about CABE, from a Manchester City Council point of view, but
reading your written submission you seem to have a kind of implied
criticism of the relationship almost, or the input, that CABE
has with the design of public buildings which probably are commissioned
by the Government. I think you refer particularly to health and
education. Bearing in mind that actually you give the final consent
for new schools, new hospitals, or whatever, could you just elaborate
on what you mean by those comments, where you seem to imply that
CABE needs to do more to drive up the standards of the design
of our public buildings?
Mr Babb: I think what we said
was that CABE has been less successful, in terms of this discussion,
with certain government departments. Building schools for the
future, I think, is an example, whereby if we are looking for
top quality schools for the future there was an initiative about
exemplar schools. Unfortunately, there does seem to be a little
bit of a funding gap. I think it is important in those discussions
that affordability issues are taken into account in terms of trying
to look at design quality as well. It is all very well driving
up aspirations if we cannot deliver those at the end of the day.
I think it is particularly important that CABE are given sufficient
opportunities to have good discussions with government departments
at an early stage to ensure that there is the possibility of good
design within the building programmes which are coming forward
in education and in the health services as well.
Q82 Christine Russell: The message should
go back, rather than going back from the LGA it should go back
from CABE to the Government that more money is needed in order
to improve the design, is that what you are saying?
Mr Babb: I think, very often,
unfortunately, programmes are set maybe before some of the issues
are looked at, in terms of detail. When you start to look at design,
design can have an effect on driving up the amount of money which
is needed to produce schools and hospitals.
Q83 Christine Russell: In your experience,
does quality of design necessarily cost more money?
Mr Babb: It need not cost more
money but I think it depends on what assumptions are being fed
into the processes in the early stage about how much per square
metre of building can be afforded.
Q84 Chairman: Just to follow up one issue
now about the possibility of CABE going into neighbourhoods in
the North, particularly the Housing Markets Renewal Pathfinder
areas. Have you got any concerns that people who are more used
perhaps to working on grand projects in London might get a bit
of a culture shock when they venture into parts of the North,
where they have probably never been before, to have a look at
the architecture there and what might be done with it?
Mr Babb: In terms of our regeneration
areas and, Housing Market Renewal Pathfinder, we have engaged
with CABE at an early stage, and in fact they have engaged with
us at an early stage of East Manchester. When the urban regeneration
company was set up, we had a briefing with members of CABE. They
understand the issues that we are facing and are very ready, willing
and able to help us further, in terms of what we might need to
ensure that we have good house-building programmes into the future.
In terms of North Manchester, for the regeneration strategy, there
was a steering group to oversee that and a member of CABE was
actually on that steering group. We have taken very positively
what CABE have said to us about wanting to be involved and to
help and assist where they can, in terms of the massive programmes
that we are looking at, to improve housing within Manchester.
Q85 Chairman: Is this mainly about house
design, as such, building houses, or is it about wider issues
and neighbourhood and environment?
Mr Babb: I do not think you can
look at just house design in terms of sustainable neighbourhoods
into the future. I think really it is looking at a holistic approach,
and CABE, certainly in terms of their future work, that they see
it as being very important. Liveability is very important to the
sustainability of our neighbourhoods. It is not just about design,
it is about all the other facilities that are needed to sustain
communities but also about how you put together the overall masterplan
and then look at the individual designs, mainly of homes. There
are some fairly interesting issues there, in terms of how we want
to make sure that into the future we can influence house design
from necessarily what the volume house-builders want to do but
also what we feel actually is right for areas. There needs to
be a variety of choice but I think CABE can help and assist in
terms of what we need to be looking at for the future.
Chairman: Thank you both very much for
coming to give evidence.
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