Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100-107)
1 NOVEMBER 2004
MR RICHARD
HASTILOW, MS
WENDY SHILLAM,
MS LIZ
PEACE AND
MR MIKE
HUSSEY
Q100 Christine Russell: Obviously, you
would refute absolutely the accusation that CABE is stuffed full
of iconic architects in their design?
Mr Hastilow: Yes, Mrs Russell,
and certainly anybody who looked at the list to see who is fielded
on the variety of occasions I think would see that too, but there
is always room for more good people.
Q101 Andrew Bennett: You could argue
that CABE was necessary because architects had served the country
pretty badly for the last 20 years. Is it not rather odd then
to give CABE extra power, in other words, giving power back to
those very architects who have made a mess of things over the
years?
Ms Shillam: As the only practising
architect on a panel of four, I think I should refute that. In
the end, there are good and bad in all professions and I believe
firmly that society gets the architecture it deserves because
of who it decides to appoint to do specific projects. CABE has
done an awful lot of work in making sure that clients, of whatever
hue, whether public or private, really think very carefully about
who they appoint for a project and appoint someone who is going
to do a good design. The fact that in the design review one is
reviewed by one's peers is a reason why as architects we respect
that hugely, because we know we are getting a technical, considered
review of our architecture.
Q102 Chairman: Is that true? If the architect
who is doing the review comes from a different school and different
thought from the architect who is actually doing the scheme, what
surely is distinctive is that probably they are not going to be
very sympathetic and accept the view of the other architect, are
they?
Ms Shillam: I think that is why
you have to make sure that the design review panel are respected
people in their field, whatever field that should be. Architects
are very used to commenting on other people's designs, it is something
we do regularly. A lot of local authorities have local architect's
panels who give informal advice. I do not see it as a problem
personally. I am always very pleased if there is an architect
on the panel which is going to review our work.
Mr Hastilow: As a layman, Mr Chairman,
I have been quite surprised to find the volume of support from
not only architects but also developers, people who have had things
done to them and said to them they might not have liked but actually
have felt afterwards is pretty fair, so I think there has been
a reasonable balance struck.
Q103 Andrew Bennett: So what happened
in the 1960s is not typical. There was a series of housing estates
which won architectural design awards and the architects thought
they were fantastic. The only trouble is that the people who had
to live there did not like them?
Mr Hastilow: Coming from Portsmouth,
Mr Bennett, I have had some experience of this. Certainly I would
recognise that the profession I support now is one which has got
things wrong in the past, of course. It has not had enough regard
in some cases for what people needed and wanted in their environment,
and certainly we have made mistakes. I think CABE is one of the
ways of helping us not to make mistakes like that in the future
by giving a better appraisal and serving the clients well.
Q104 Christine Russell: Can I ask you
a slightly controversial question. Under the domain of my colleague,
sitting on the other side of the room, most architectural services
in local authorities were outsourced, privatised, whatever you
want to call it. Is it now the chickens coming home to roost,
that within local authorities you no longer have the expertise
present and that is why CABE is needed? Do you see that we will
always need CABE, or should we be putting more resources into
rebuilding that architectural capacity within local authorities?
Mr Hastilow: Yes, I think that
we do need a higher level of design experience and skill and advice
within local authorities. Arguably, the pendulum has swung too
far. That is not to say that local authorities do not engage good
architects in their regions to advise them, and good planners
and engineers and others. Of course they do. The answer to the
second part, in my view, is that even if you beef up, as we recommend
you beef up, the design skills within local authorities, the internal
adviser can still end up very close to a project, especially if
it is a huge one and you have been working with it for years.
To have that cool, external appraisal, I think, will still be
extremely valuable to a lot of local authorities and other clients.
Q105 Christine Russell: Would the BPF
like to pass any comment on the capacity of local authorities?
Ms Peace: I think, generally speaking,
and I would not want to be drawn on individual cases, we do feel
that there is a lack of design experience within local authorities.
I think, however, even if you did beef it up, having some sort
of super body that can take a view on the larger or more significant
applications is a good thing, for exactly those reasons. I wonder
if I could throw in one other point, which I think harks back
partly to Mr Bennett's question. Design is not all about the architects.
Architects are employed by developers. A good developer will engage
in an iterative process with the architect and, I do not know
whether you have ever done it, Mike, certainly in some cases,
throw things back at the architect and say he does not like it
and there will be a discussion and, as I say, an iteration. It
takes more than just an architect to come up with good design.
Mr Hussey: In the context of what
CABE is being asked to look at, by putting a body of experts in
the design review panel and then consulting with them makes a
lot of sense, because they are the top people in their particular
professions and therefore the local authority is going to benefit
from advice from top professionals. In a way, the question is,
if it is geared away from CABE slightly and into the local authorities
and if there is a slight lack of design expertise then perhaps
the areas of most concern are the ones where CABE do not touch
them, between those and the more mundane day-to-day applications.
CABE touch a very small percentage of overall applications and
probably there are a fair number of reasonably large, reasonably
important applications which go through the design process with
local authorities which may be underresourced, and I think that
is an area of concern. I do not know how that touches the point
particularly, which is a review of CABE in its current form, which
I believe does add value to the design consideration in a local
authority.
Q106 Christine Russell: Is that particularly
a problem in the regions rather than in London and the South East?
Mr Hussey: I think resource is
an issue for a large number of planning authorities, whether it
is within London or externally.
Ms Shillam: It is not just outside.
Perhaps some of the bigger unitary authorities outside London
are best able to deal with these issues, while some of the London
boroughs, in the experience of our members, find it very difficult
to give the time and attention to an application which it requires,
having just a huge amount of applications.
Mr Hussey: Yes, and I think the
London boroughs have a larger percentage of these large applications
as well. I think it is not just resource, it is turnover, the
constant turnover of some of the planning officials makes it very
difficult to process a planning application over, say, a two-
to three-year period, when you might have half a dozen people
dealing with the case.
Q107 Chairman: I wonder whether you concur
with something that a developer said to me the other day, that
their worst experience of CABE was on a scheme where CABE had
expressed no interest and came in right at the last minute and
started making comments almost when the development had been fixed
and the application was about to be considered, whereas the general
advice is that CABE should be in early to influence the discussions,
to formulate part of the process?
Ms Peace: Yes, absolutely. I think
we would say the earlier the better.
Mr Hussey: I think the informal
advice is much more appreciated, before you put in the planning
application, and then one person making the decision is the ideal
for us.
Ms Shillam: Also it gives the
opportunity for local stakeholders and the local community to
respond to that advice and give a view of support or not.
Chairman: Thank you all for your evidence.
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