Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80-99)
6 DECEMBER 2004
MR TIM
RICKETTS AND
MS GIFTY
EDILA
Q80 Mr O'Brien: You do not see any problems
with the advice and guidance given, and think it is adequate.
Ms Edila: Generally we would say
it is adequate. In areas where we do have issues we do raise them.
We have had one recently on dual-hattedness, a lobbying, and we
are talking with the Standards Board about ways to improve some
of the guidance and information around there.
Mr Ricketts: I agree with those
sentiments. I should add that the Standards Board also publishes
a newsletter aimed directly at parish and town councils, which
is extremely useful. The website of the Standards Board is a good
source of information for parish and town councils. The only sticking
point for that is that not all parish and town councils have access
to the Internet, but that may be a matter for outside of this
particular meeting. The information is there, and generally it
is very well accepted.
Q81 Christine Russell: What more can
the Standards Board do to communicate with town and parish councils?
Obviously it you put more on the Internet, that will be an answer.
Mr Ricketts: I think so. There
is a move to now and again having some regional seminars with
parish and town councils. Without wanting to number-crunch, there
are 8,500 parish and town councils and some 80,000 councillors.
Any national body trying to accommodate all those people faces
a quite daunting task, and the Standards Board has done well to
address that. However, perhaps if we looked at some regional training
structure whereby parish and town councils in a certain area could
come together on an annual basis or something like that, I am
sure that would be very welcome.
Q82 Christine Russell: At what sort of
level do you think that could be organised most effectively—perhaps
at county level rather than regional level?
Mr Ricketts: County level would
be appropriate. I do not know whether this is the right juncture
to mention it, but one of the difficulties we find, although it
varies across the country, is that while standards committees
themselves have a duty under the 2000 Act to provide training
to parish and town councillors, the implementation of that training
is good in some areas but very poor in others. I do not want to
state the obvious, but—
Q83 Christine Russell: Are there league
tables to demonstrate that?
Mr Ricketts: I am afraid there
is not a league table; I can only give you personal experience.
I do not have those kinds of figures, but the input I get from
colleagues in county associations is that it does vary immensely
around the country. I am sure that as far as the dissemination
of advice and training from the standards point of view is concerned,
that would be greatly assisted if standards committees were able,
be it by resource or whatever, to have the information to provide
that training. The whole training thing would be a lot easier
for the Standards Board.
Q84 Christine Russell: Earlier you made
an interesting observation that this huge volume of complaints
that has emanated since the establishment of the Standards Board,
particularly regarding parish councils, is perhaps explained by
the fact that there is no ombudsman in office in parish councils.
Ms Edila, would you go along with that explanation, or do you
have other explanations as to why there has been a huge volume
of complaints about parish councils or councillors?
Ms Edila: I would not necessarily
say that the lack of access to an ombudsman is the primary reason
for that. When the code of conduct was being adopted and the Standards
Board being set up, the monitoring officers locally did raise
the issue about the large volume of complaints likely to be received,
and whether the Board would be able to manage. From my experience,
that is clearly because there is a degree of misunderstanding
about the role of members in service delivery, and that would
invariably lead to complaints being made.
Q85 Christine Russell: Why should that
apply to parish councillors more than to district councillors
or county councillors or any other councillor?
Ms Edila: Some of the experiences
that my members, the monitoring officers, have had, at the metropolitan,
unitary London level, is that there is a much greater awareness
and promotion of the ethical framework amongst the members in
those authorities.
Q86 Christine Russell: Are you saying
there is more corruptness at the parish level than there is at
the metropolitan level in—
Ms Edila: Not at all.
Q87 Christine Russell: What are you trying
to say?
Ms Edila: The understanding amongst
those who are complaining about the behaviour of parish councillors—
Q88 Christine Russell: So people living
in rural areas are more ignorant of procedures of local government—is
that what you are saying? I am trying to pin it down.
Ms Edila: That is absolutely fine.
It is the level of information available about the way things
operate, which perhaps may not be as open in terms of access to
information. If you take the London level, members of the public
are attending council meetings and are aware of the way things
operate. We have had difficulties in promoting the Code more locally
in parish councils. We have had more resistance to signing up
to the code of conduct amongst parish councillors, which has led
to far more complaints at that level. There have been a lot of
issues around declarations of interest and a willingness to accept
obligations to declare interests in parish councils. These have
been challenging issues, rather than any real corrupt practice
or failure to comply. It is simply the lack of awareness and lack
of understanding which is where I think more work needs to be
done.
Q89 Christine Russell: Where do you point
the finger of blame—at the people doing the complaining,
or the people being complained about?
Ms Edila: I would say that we
all had a responsibility, as members and officers within local
government, to seek to highlight and address some of those issues
to raise awareness. I would certainly not say necessarily it was
a problem for those who are complaining, because if there is a
greater understanding of the process—
Q90 Christine Russell: So it is not a
problem with the parish councillors and it is not a problem with
the local people who are alleging complaints; the problem is with
local officials who are not explaining well enough what the code
of practice is.
Ms Edila: I believe we can do
more work. Certainly my association is looking at developing things
like corporate governance as a step in the right direction, to
try and raise awareness of the obligations, because that is missing;
there is a lack of understanding that there is a clear obligation
to comply with the code.
Mr Ricketts: Can I address the
number of complaints issue? Quite often we hear about the huge
volume of complaints about parish and town councils, but it is
disproportionate with all those kinds of words. The figures do
not really demonstrate that. At the end of the last financial
year the Standards Board received just over 3,000 complaints about
parish and town councils, and they investigated 29% of those,
so roughly 1,000, in relation to 60% of which no further action
was taken. In 20% there was no evidence of breach, and in relation
to 20% some action was taken as a result of the complaint. Although
that is number-crunching, you start off potentially with 80,000
people who could be subject to a complaint from a member of the
public, but when you talk about a thousand being investigated
more than half of which had no further action, I am not sure that
we are talking about disproportionality or a huge number. We are
starting off with a huge number in the first place. It may be
that the Standards Board and other associated bodies quite understandably
did not appreciate the number of local authorities that they would
be dealing with and the potential number of complaints that could
come forward; but if we use words like "disproportionate"
and "huge" it may give a slightly wrong kilter to what
is happening.
Q91 Chairman: You mentioned earlier that
leaders in parish councils or individuals in parish councils could
be involved in all sorts of different activities. Is it not also
a concern that in quite small communities you get a lot of people
related to other people, so it might be a worry that the planning
application affects the parish councillor's Auntie Flo's back
garden or something? Is it realistic to apply all these standards
to every little parish?
Mr Ricketts: I am sure there are
very small parish councils where the code of conduct almost meant
that nobody could say anything at any meeting, which may be extreme.
I am sure some people interpret the code as a means of preventing
some people from speaking, whereas it is a method of allowing
people to speak but given certain limitations. There tends to
be a very negative portrayal of the code of conduct, whereas when
you really look at it quite closely, it allows people even within
small communities to say and do no more or less than they were
doing previously. It tends just to be when there are perhaps financial
considerations in relation to some club that they are supporting
or are a member of; and when that comes before the parish council,
quite rightly they should not participate in deciding whether
to give that particular organisation some money. However, it is
not quite as restrictive as people always think it is, on closer
inspection, although there is some confusion on how to interpret
parts of it—I grant you that. That is the way we should
apply it across the board. Parish councils of any size have the
power to precept, which means they could go to their local population
and ask them, in theory, for a limited amount of money on an annual
basis, and they are not subject to any limits or capping. As soon
as you have an elected body that is able to tax its local population,
you have to expect the code of conduct to apply to those authorities,
even if they are very small.
Q92 Chairman: Are you worried that the
structure of the code might affect the ability to get people to
come forward and stand as candidates?
Mr Ricketts: It has not been the
experience in our view. Initially, there were people who decided
they did not want to work under a code of conduct, which I found
quite odd because they were working under a code of conduct previously,
although maybe it was not as clear as the existing code. There
has not been a decline as far as councils themselves are concerned.
There have been 300-400 new parish and town councils formed since
2000. Those are made up of councillors within their communities.
Although it may have happened in certain small parts of the country,
the general statement I do not think is a disincentive at all.
Q93 Andrew Bennett: How much time do
you think someone on the town or parish council should spend on
being trained for this sort of thing?
Mr Ricketts: That is a very good
question! It is quite hard to think. If I can explain how our
organisation works, parish and town councils affiliate to county
associations, and through that they affiliate also to national
associations, so it tends to be on the whole the county associations
that provide training, as well as other bodies, to parish and
town councils. They would invite members along to training of
one sort or another on a monthly or bi-monthly basis that is not
always code of conduct related. If the county association invited
member councillors along on an annual basis to have training on
the code of conduct, that would be acceptable. Sometimes, it is
not the courses being available, but it is getting people along
to those courses. With councillors—certainly whenever I
address an audience, you are almost preaching to the converted.
It is the people that do not attend courses that you need to get
in front of you, not those who turn up.
Q94 Andrew Bennett: Mr Mussett, in the
first session, made it clear that it was a major problem that
a lot of councillors did not participate. Do you agree with that?
Ms Edila: To add to what my colleague
has said, there are a variety of methods whereby we aim to provide
training. Clearly, induction of newly-elected members is our first
target group. There are a series of seminars over the course of
the year. We have had quite a lot of new legislation, which provides
an additional opportunity—the Planning and Compulsory Purchase
Act—to train members on dealing with the code in determination
of planning applications, and likewise the Licensing Act where
there are ongoing seminars. We tend to look at that. It is more
difficult to attract the more experienced members to the regular
ongoing seminars. It is ideal to aim for the annual conferences
in addition to the new areas of legislation where there will be
a more direct focus in terms of the level of their interest, because
it is on those major committees where they need to be mindful
of the operation of the code. That is the way in which we aim
to ensure there is an ongoing programme of training and development.
Q95 Andrew Bennett: You think the amount
of time you demand people to do the training is reasonable, given
responsibilities to spouses and to families, and the need to get
round and talk to the electorate.
Ms Edila: I would advocate that
our experience is that the training programme and the frequently
of availability is reasonable. The new members will clearly need
more training initially, and they welcome that approach. The more
experienced members tend to focus training in relation to new
legislation, and the way we tend to programme for those tends
to work reasonably well.
Q96 Andrew Bennett: Should those who
do not turn up be penalised?
Ms Edila: One of the ways we have
aimed to address that is to enshrine it in the various constitutions—for
example if you have not been trained on planning and code of conduct,
you cannot sit on that particular committee. That tends to incentivise
members to attend the training.
Q97 Andrew Bennett: But I can go to a
meeting and take no notice of what is going on at all, so how
do you prove that I have been trained?
Ms Edila: That is a difficult
one. One could only hope that in terms of your understanding of
compliance with the code—
Q98 Andrew Bennett: Do I do a test, then?
Ms Edila: Not at all; we do not
test members. It is performance at committees; and certainly my
members, the monitoring officers attending committees, have an
overview of the extent of members' awareness and application of
the code. Clearly, where there are difficulties you would ensure
that you provided that particular member with additional support
and guidance.
Q99 Mr Betts: Should all members who
have been complained about receive information about the complaint
before it is sent for investigation?
Mr Ricketts: My personal view
is that if a complaint has been received about somebody, then
the person being complained about should be advised by the Standards
Board at the moment the complaint is received. They will be able
to tell them more in due course. I cannot see any fairer way of
looking at it.
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