Examination of Witnesses (Questions 200-216)
MS DIANE
HENDERSON, MS
HELEN WILLIAMS,
MR JOHN
ROSSER, MR
JOSH SUTTON,
MR LES
WILLIAMSON AND
MR RICHARD
ADAMSON
30 NOVEMBER 2004
Q200 Chairman: Right. Can I take the
Forum on to the question about are homeless statistics any good
at all?
Mr Sutton: I would like to answer
that, if I may. I think they are good but they could be better.
In terms of measuring homelessness statistics through the P1Es,
for example—this is a well established thought I think—it
does not give you a full picture. For example, 2003-04, Craven
accepted 42 people as full duty homeless, we made a total of in
the region of 150 decisions but we had over 200 people come through
the door and make inquiries about homeless. So figures that go
into the P1Es do not reflect necessarily what is going on at front
line level and people coming through the door and making inquiries,
accordingly there is perhaps a potential for that extra capacity
to go under funded.
Q201 Chairman: Sheffield Hallam University
have done a piece of work for the Forum, is that right?
Mr Sutton: Sheffield Hallam University
have done a number of pieces of work in the region. Most recently
was the report that was commissioned by Crisis and the Countryside
Agency entitled Your Place Not Mine and that was looking
particularly at hidden homelessness. The three areas it chose
were London, Sheffield and Craven which is, as I said earlier,
a large rural district.
Q202 Chairman: Was the piece of work
any good?
Mr Sutton: The piece of work was
good, yes.
Q203 Chairman: What did it show?
Mr Sutton: From Craven's perspective
it showed a couple of very interesting points really. Of the homelessness
people interviewed in Craven, approximately less than 50% came
down and presented at local authority. That was for two reasons.
The first reason was because of pre-conceived ideas of what any
outcome might be.
Q204 Chairman: In other words, they thought
it was useless coming to see you?
Mr Sutton: In other words, yes.
But perhaps more alarmingly was a significant number of them did
not even know that the local authority had a duty to provide a
homelessness service. It was this aspect that as the homelessness
provider, post LSVT, we took on board, and we began to publicise
the service.
Q205 Chairman: What is the point of publicising
the service if you cannot meet the need?
Mr Sutton: I think by publicising
the service you are going to generate perhaps a true need because
there is a danger of under recording your need because people
do not know about it.
Q206 Chairman: If you record your need
you might get the resources?
Mr Sutton: That is the idea behind
it.
Q207 Mr Clelland: Do you consider the
increase in homelessness in the Yorkshire and Humberside area
to mirror national trends and what explanation do you have?
Ms Henderson: There does seem
to be a general increase in people presenting as homeless. I am
not sure that we are confident as to the reasons why that is the
case yet. The bottom line is providing that safeguard for people
when they apply, and that we know when people come through the
door they are given the appropriate treatment. I guess anecdotally
we can say that the widening of the statutory homeless categories
from the 2002 Act will have some influence but what most local
authorities are saying to us, and members too, is that it is a
general increase across the board, it is not just the new categories
that have come in, whether that is partly about people being more
aware of what help they can get or partly just the way to get
housing is to present as homeless. Obviously in parts of the South
East, the cost of the private rented sector is prohibitive. It
is very complex as to why the numbers have gone up but I do not
think the answer is to say it was because of the Act or because
of a huge lack of accommodation. It is an addition of all those
reasons.
Ms Williams: Can I add to that?
Picking up the point about the homelessness statistics as well,
they show who local authorities have accepted a duty to. Beyond
that, there are a large number of people in acute housing need
who are not accepted as homeless, maybe they are over-crowded
or they are single people who do not meet the vulnerability test.
There is a huge level of acute housing need out there not being
measured by homelessness statistics.
Q208 Mr Clelland: Does Yorkshire and
Humberside have any explanation as to why there has been a huge
increase or a considerable increase?
Mr Adamson: In Scarborough we
have had increases because of the extension to the priority groups
in the 2002 Act but also we have had a 300% increase in landlords
ending short hold tenancies, that seemed to be because of the
price increases. It is not the large scale landlord, it is people
who own one or two properties and they have decided "My house
that I bought for £50,000 is now worth £150,000, I can
get the tenant out and sell it". There have been a lot of
homeless applications coming in from people who say the landlord
wants to sell the property. Hopefully if the housing market is
cooling down a bit that phenomenon might stop but a lot of landlords
have been getting out of the market because they think they can
get a better return for their money somewhere else.
Q209 Mr Clelland: Are there particular
specialist needs in the rural coastal areas?
Mr Adamson: Yes. One of the challenges
in Scarborough borough—it has three centres of population,
there is Filey, Scarborough and Whitby—it is very difficult
to provide services without people having to move to the services.
There is not a very great incidence of homelessness in rural areas
mainly because people who live 20 miles outside of Whitby know
that if they come in, they will be offered accommodation in Whitby
and they are not going to get back to the community where they
lived originally. There is a scale issue, in terms of providing
the services there are economies of scale. Rural districts do
not have the centres of population that make some specialist services
economically viable. Scarborough is 300 square miles so if you
put the service somewhere in the middle people have got to come
a hell of a long way to access that service and that is a feature
right across North Yorkshire.
Q210 Mr Clelland: What particular financial
problems has the increase in homelessness created?
Mr Adamson: Scarborough Council
is predicting that its expenditure on bed and breakfast this year
is going to be half a million pounds. As I used to work for the
borough council and manage its homelessness service before stock
transfer, that is more than double what I can ever remember a
local authority spending on bed and breakfast in the past. The
difficulty being, again as I said, the only provision for homeless
families in Whitby is bed and breakfast, there is no hostel in
Whitby. People in Whitby will not move 20 miles to move into a
council's hostel in Scarborough, quite reasonably. Whitby probably
is not big enough to sustain a homeless hostel so the council
is working with ourselves and others to develop flexible housing
that can be used as temporary accommodation for people who are
homeless but if the demand is not there it could be let on a permanent
basis to a permanent tenant. That is obviously a long term strategy
that may take two or three years.
Q211 Mr Clelland: Should there be changes
in the way that homelessness services are paid for?
Mr Adamson: Somebody has got to
pay for them and at the end of the day it comes down to the taxpayer,
whichever pot it comes out of. I am quite sure the local authority
would love the Government to pay, but whether that is reasonable
or not, I do not know.
Mr Williamson: Can I just add,
the difficulty is that it is general fund expenditure and general
fund expenditure is under pressure. Councils are faced with council
tax capping. Let me just give you an example. A small district
council in North Yorkshire, Ryedale which is based on Malton,
the cost to them of bed and breakfast this year is equivalent
to 2% on the council tax. If you look at next year, and have to
budget 2% for bed and breakfast and 3% for inflation and you are
facing council tax capping of 5%, there is not much room for manoeuvre.
Q212 Mr Clelland: If, as a result of
our inquiry, the Committee was to suggest to the Government that
they should invest more money in housing projects that would benefit
homeless people, what would be your top priority for projects
as far as you are concerned?
Mr Williamson: In North Yorkshire,
there is no simple answer to the problem of homelessness because
it is an acute symptom of the problem of affordability. The problem
of affordability is not easily solvable. If we were looking at
measures in the immediate term, it would need to be resourcing
more temporary accommodation, hostels and more revenue support
through Supporting People. Beyond that you are looking at measures
like restricting further the right to buy because it is not a
coincidence that the increases in problems of affordability have
coincided with councils selling 40 to 50% of their housing stock
over the past 25 years. Also, as Richard says, the issue of the
prevailing form of tenure in the private sector where there is
an inherent insecurity in the form of tenure—the Assured
Shorthold Tenancy.
Q213 Mr Clelland: Do you think we concentrate
too much on owner occupation rather than the rented sector?
Mr Sutton: Yes, broadly speaking.
Q214 Christine Russell: Finally, can
I ask you what is a big question but please can you give us a
short answer. There appears to be, amongst the members of the
National Federation, huge variance in the way that the legislation
and guidance regarding homeless applications is interpreted. Do
you feel there is a need for ODPM to look again at the legislation
and perhaps consider reviewing it?
Ms Henderson: I think the legislation
may be okay. I think we are waiting for a revision of the Code
of Guidance.
Q215 Christine Russell: How long have
you been waiting for it?
Ms Henderson: I am trying to think.
It was mooted when I first started working for the Federation
about two and a bit years ago.
Ms Williams: For the new Homelessness
Act.
Ms Henderson: This is the new
Homelessness Act Code of Guidance. I think that will help. One
of the issues is that it is used very differently by different
areas.
Q216 Christine Russell: Have you been
given an indication as to when that may see the light of day?
Ms Henderson: No.
Chairman: On that note, can I thank you
all very much for your evidence.
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