Examination of Witnesses (Questions 340-354)
PAUL GOGGINS
MP AND MR
IVOR CAPLIN
MP
14 DECEMBER 2004
Q340 Chairman: Come on, what is the early
stages? Have you let the contract?
Mr Caplin: Yes, to King's College,
I just said, Chairman. King's College London are doing the work
for us.
Q341 Chairman: So when do you expect
to have the results from that?
Mr Caplin: During the early part
of next year.
Q342 Christine Russell: Are there any
early indications you can share with us?
Mr Caplin: Not today, no.
Q343 Christine Russell: On a question
my colleague over there asked about ex-prisoners, do you find
there are any regional variations as to the level of homelessness
and the problems faced by ex military men and women?
Mr Caplin: Obviously we have large
areas of the military population in certain parts of the country.
It will be no surprise to the Committee to hear that—in
Plymouth, in Portsmouth, in Aldershot, in Colchester, in Catterick,
in Rosyth in Scotland—it is likely that some of the regional
hot spots will be around those areas. I think (and we hope) that
the research will look at this in detail. One of the things that
we do foresee is that the problem is likely to be with smaller
numbers of people in different areas, so, for instance, instead
of the actual homelessness issue being around Catterick in Yorkshire
it might well be in Manchester because people tend to drift back
to maybe where they once lived. That is part of what I hope the
research will develop for us and show us the real issues that
we face in terms of homelessness.
Q344 Mr Cummings: The Committee came
across the problems of the National Asylum Support Service's allocations
in their report on social cohesion. Can you tell the Committee
what has been done to plan NASS allocations so that housing authorities
are not too over-burdened and communities become unbalanced?
Paul Goggins: I will take this
one, Chairman, although I should point out of course that Des
Browne my colleague Minister in the Home Office is principally
responsible for asylum and immigration.
Q345 Chairman: Yes but there is limit
to the number of Ministers we wanted to call today!
Paul Goggins: I just say that
in case you want a little more detail in terms of the answers.
Certainly as we are developing the National Refugee Integration
Statutory, and indeed as we are seeking to renegotiate some of
the contracts now that NASS have with housing providers, we certainly
see the reduction of homelessness and prevention of homelessness
as being absolutely critical features here and it is certainly
something that we intend to deliver as we move forward.
Q346 Mr Cummings: Are you giving clear
guidance to NASS on developing relationships with local authorities
and other service providers?
Paul Goggins: As I say, NASS are
renegotiating contracts in 2005 with housing providers and certainly
we are giving them very clear advice that we expect the prevention
or the reduction of homelessness as being essential.
Q347 Mr Cummings: Are they taking that
advice?
Paul Goggins: They certainly will
take that advice. Let me give you a practical example where somebody
has been dispersed into the system and is living at a particular
address and they have their asylum application dealt with and
they are given refugee status, it is important that they are able
to continue to live in that accommodation beyond the positive
decision. You do not want to move somebody out suddenly because
they have had a positive decision because if you did that it could
destabilise their—
Q348 Chairman: Can you guarantee that
they are able to live there?
Paul Goggins: To my knowledge
there are no particular guarantees but we certainly want to see
them being able to stay there for a while until they move on to
permanent accommodation. We certainly do not want to see disruption
at the time of a positive decision and that is one of the features
we will looking to develop as we look at the contracts that NASS
has with housing providers.
Q349 Mr Cummings: Are you satisfied that
NASS are dealing with this situation in the homeless sector quite
seriously?
Paul Goggins: There have clearly
been difficulties over the last few years in this area but we
are seeking to deal with them and the renegotiation of contracts
next year provides an opportunity to get this better, to get this
more effective.
Mr Cummings: Do I detect some doubts
at the efficiency of NASS in your remarks, Minister?
Chairman: We cannot get a smile on the
record very easily!
Q350 Mr Cummings: If so, are you going
to give them any firmer guidelines?
Paul Goggins: I am sure that my
colleague will be giving them very clear guidelines indeed as
they renegotiate their contracts. Yes, there have been difficulties
and we do not hide that and, yes, we have got to make sure that
the contracts that NASS have are as efficient as possible, but
we have also got to ensure, if we are going to prevent homelessness
and if we are going to create stable communities and populations—and
I evidence that with the example I gave—that there is the
opportunity to stay in accommodation beyond the positive decision.
That is certainly very important—to make sure that we get
an alignment between the level of need of individuals who are
within the dispersal system and the surrounding communities. I
think getting that right is going to be a very important feature
of the NASS contracts as they are renegotiated.
Q351 Mr Cummings: How serious are the
problems arising from the new EU accession states and the pressures
that they are adding to the housing situation?
Paul Goggins: It is a very interesting
question. If I can tell you that in terms of new lettings for
those coming from the accession countries between May and September,
the sum total of new lets was 14, and so I do not think we are
being overwhelmed in terms of new accommodation requirements for
people coming in. Of course if people's right to be here is conditional
on them being self-sufficient then they do not have an automatic
right to housing or housing support but where they are here legitimately
and are working and making a contribution obviously they begin
to accumulate rights.
Q352 Mr Betts: I am in discussion with
Des Browne about one of the biggest problems in my constituency
which is people who are failed asylum seekers who will not accept
hard case support because they do not want to move to another
area and who often end up sleeping sometimes 10 to a house in
the homes of people who have got continued NASS support because
they are claiming asylum or have been successful in that claim
and that causes major problems of social disruption in communities.
Is that an issue which the department has flagged up as a problem
that it has got to deal with?
Paul Goggins: It is an issue and
of course what it requires is a speedier system for making decisions
and then a determination that people must be removed if they fail.
The problem has been that too often the decision-making process
has taken too long, people become well established and then after
a negative decision is taken, there is an issue about how they
and their families can be removed. We are certainly seeking to
develop initiatives first of all to make the decisions quicker
but also to remove people where they have failed their asylum
application.
Q353 Mr Betts: Even to allow them to
stay within that community until you remove them rather than hard
case support and insisting they move to another area, which is
a big problem?
Paul Goggins: It certainly needs
to be a done in a fair and humane way but it must be done and
done in a determined way. We cannot allow delay to create further
uncertainty in the lives of these individuals and the communities
around them. We are certainly seeking to work with local authorities
to try to deal with these issues. In the end where people have
failed and they have no further legitimate right to be here or
to claim support then they will be removed.
Q354 Chairman: Mr Caplin, you have talked
about the people who are leaving the forces and you also talked
about the people who have left and have continuing needs. What
about the people who are actually in the forces? Young people
at 18 or 19 if they go off to college suddenly find they have
got to sort accommodation out for themselves and they grow up
pretty quickly. Even if they stay at home and work there is a
tendency for parents to try and ease them out as soon as reasonable
and they learn then about the housing market. For a lot of people
who are in the services, particularly people who stay in for a
long time, they often have very little idea about what the housing
market is and the realistic problems. Are you doing anything to
try and make sure that people in the services actually know the
realities of life outside?
Mr Caplin: We have something called
the Joint Services Housing Advice Office and its role within the
military chain of command is, as I was explaining earlier, instead
of just dealing with people at the end of their military careers,
at the end of 22 years which might be, say, at age 38 if they
joined at 16, to deal with them on a more regular basis so that
we understand their needs and their aspirations. It is true to
say that particularly in the Army it is much more single today
than it was in the past. About 60% of the British Army is single
and that places different pressures on us in terms of single living
accommodation and the need to make sure that we guide those people
through those years in the Army properly and effectively so that
when they become veterans they have the right advice and are able,
if they want to, to have the advice they need to go into the proper
housing market. We will continue that by way of encouragement
both to single people and to families within the Army, as I was
explaining earlier, because we do not have properties ourselves.
Chairman: On that note, can I thank you
both very much for your evidence.
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