Examination of Witnesses (Questions 243
- 259)
TUESDAY 14 SEPTEMBER 2004
MR RICHARD
ALLAN, MR
IAN SCOTTER,
MR JONATHAN
BLACKIE AND
MR ANDREW
CAMPBELL
Q243 Chairman: Can I welcome you
to the third session of evidence on the Draft Regional Assemblies
Bill. Can I point out that all the evidence that we have received
on time will be published on Monday of next week, but it is already
on the web page if people want to consult it. Can I ask you to
identify yourself for the record?
Mr Allan: My name is Richard Allan
and I am head of the Regional Policy Directorate at ODPM.
Mr Scotter: I am Ian Scotter,
Head of the Regional Assemblies Division in the Office of the
Deputy Prime Minister.
Mr Blackie: Jonathan Blackie;
I am Regional Director of the Government Office in the North East.
Mr Campbell: Andrew Campbell,
Director of the Regional Coordination Unit, which is the corporate
centre for Government Offices.
Q244 Chairman: Do you want to say
anything by way of introduction or are you happy to go straight
to questions?
Mr Allan: I do not have anything
to say by way of introduction, Chairman. I am happy to go into
your questioning.
Q245 Chris Mole: Good morning, gentlemen.
Establishing elected regional assemblies would be another step
in the Government's policy of strengthening the mechanisms for
regional governance. What do you think the implications of the
outcome of the referendum in the North East would be as to the
future direction of general policy?
Mr Allan: If there is a "yes"
vote, the next step is that we need another Act of Parliament
to actually set up elected regional assemblies, and that is the
draft Bill which you have. The local government reorganisation
would proceed and then, hopefully some time in 2006-07, the new
institutions would get up and running and start to assume their
responsibilities. That is one scenario. The other scenario is
that if there is a "no" vote, at least in the North
East—there is no elected regional assembly there—the
local government reorganisation proposals fall, there cannot be
another referendum in the region for another seven years and the
existing regional institutions, the Government Office for the
North East, the existing Regional Chamber and the RDA continue
to work together on the regional agenda, as they do now.
Q246 Chris Mole: I suspect the question
is looking, to an extent, for a view on what implications for
other regions might be?
Mr Allan: The Government has said
that it will not be taking any further soundings about interest
in a referendum in the light of this Parliament, so that certainly
indicates a future question, but obviously other regions will
be, I imagine, watching with great interest, first of all to see
what the vote is and then to see how the new institutions develop,
if that is the way the vote goes.
Q247 Sir Paul Beresford: There is
a second variation of your first version: because it is all postal
voting and because there is some cynicism on the legitimacy of
postal voting and some cynicism on the extent of fraud, in spite
of what the Electoral Commission have said, some of the comments
made from other nations, other countries, on fraud is that it
can be quite substantial. What happens if you get a "yes"
vote but the majority is small and/or the turn-out is small? That
is really going to question whether it should go ahead and whether
the vote is valid?
Mr Allan: The voting method has
been decided by Parliament. There is not a threshold, of course,
as you will know.
Q248 Sir Paul Beresford: What sort
of threshold would you be comfortable with?
Mr Allan: There is not a threshold.
Q249 Sir Paul Beresford: No, I said,
"What sort of threshold would you be comfortable with"?
Mr Allan: All I can say is that
ministers have said . . . This is, of course, an advisory referendum
to the government department, and ministers have said that if
the turn-out were derisory it would—
Q250 Chairman: Tell us. What is derisory?
Mr Allan: I am afraid you will
have to ask Mr Raynsford that tomorrow.
Q251 Chairman: I did and he forgot
to answer?
Mr Allan: I do not think I can
pass an opinion on that.
Q252 Sir Paul Beresford: What about
the majority?
Mr Allan: One is enough.
Q253 Sir Paul Beresford: In spite
of the concern over fraud?
Mr Allan: That is the arrangement
that has been set up.
Q254 Chairman: Have you any indication
of what level of fraud there was in the all-postal vote for the
European Elections in the North East?
Mr Allan: All I know is what is
in the Electoral Commission's report.
Q255 Chairman: Would you like to
share that with us?
Mr Allan: I am afraid I have not
got that to the forefront of my memory, Chairman, but my impression
from their general remarks is that there was not a high level
of fraud.
Q256 Chairman: I understood that
in the North East there were no further police inquiries going
on with a view to fraud. So basically there is not any evidence?
Mr Allan: Indeed, that is what
they are saying.
Q257 Chris Mole: Coming back to the
draft Bill, it has been argued it would only provide one model
of regional governance, that is, the elected region assemblies.
Some of the submissions we have had argue that the Bill should
facilitate different forms of regional governance reflecting different
regional differences, for example, by giving a clearer statutory
recognition to the existing non-elected regional assemblies. What
is your response to those arguments?
Mr Allan: I think the Bill is
about setting up elected regional assemblies as a new institution
with specific powers and duties, it is not about giving further
powers to existing assemblies which, as you will know, are voluntary
bodies recognised by government for certain purposes and given
certain very specific duties in other statutes and I think as
far as they are concerned they will continue to evolve. The Government
may choose to give them more powers for certain purposes, but
this exercise is fundamentally about elected regional assemblies
and not about the others.
Q258 Chris Mole: One of the views
we have had about the existing voluntary assemblies is that they
have encouraged some very positive partnership work in between
all the different agencies within a region. What is your response
to the concern that an elected regional assembly would not take
such a participative approach because it has more direct responsibilities
and powers?
Mr Allan: It is certainly true
that I think the Government and a lot of other people have been
very pleased with the way the existing assemblies have developed
and the way they have brought new bodies in and performed an inclusive
role. The elected regional assemblies are obviously going to be
different, because they have this direct electoral mandate which
the existing assemblies do not, but the Government is very concerned
that they involve stakeholders in their work, and that is why
the Bill has the provisions you will see for assembly participants,
as they are called, to be involved in the assembly. Perhaps I
could ask Mr Scotter to say a little bit more about the importance
of stakeholders.
Mr Scotter: The draft Bill puts
a duty on an elected assembly to take action to involve stakeholders,
assembly participants, as they are called, in its work. It has
to encourage and facilitate. What the Bill does not do is lay
down exactly in black and white how that should take place, because
this is about putting in—the regions decide—putting
in place the arrangements which are right for them. There is no
single approach to involving stakeholders which the Government
thinks is the right one to follow. The examples that are often
quoted are the Scottish civic forum and the Welsh sector-specific
forums, which they have. They have a business forum; they have
a local government forum; they have other forums. The structure
of the Bill is such that it enables an assembly to decide how
it wants to do those things, but it is under a clear duty to involve
stakeholders in its work, typically through the development of
the assembly scheme, and report back the state of the nation—not
the state of the nation, the state of the region, a report which
they will be required to produce every year. There is also a framework
within the Bill for stakeholders to be co-opted into the review
and monitoring committee of the assembly and sub-committees of
the committee. So there is a framework there which allows and
requires participation from stakeholders but leaves it to the
assembly to decide what is the appropriate route for its own assembly.
Q259 Mr Clelland: Can I ask Jonathan
Blackie: if the referendum is won and we do eventually get an
elected regional government in the North East, what will be the
continuing role for the Government Office for the North East?
Mr Blackie: We currently represent
about ten government departments in the regional office, so we
cover quite a wide spectrum of government activity across the
region. The draft Bill sets out the functions, which cover particularly
economic development, planning, transport and housing, so we currently
estimate that about 80 to 100 of our staff out of a total of 300
would transfer to an elected regional assembly So there would
be a significant transfer of functions, but there would still
be quite a wide range of activity that would be focused in the
government office, and clearly there would be a relationship between
the government office and the elected regional assembly itself,
particularly as a conduit into government.
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