Examination of Witnesses (Questions 322
- 339)
TUESDAY 14 SEPTEMBER 2004
COUNCILLOR ARTHUR
BRANSBY THOMAS,
COUNCILLOR BOB
GIBSON, MR
PAUL BRIGGS,
MR STEVE
MACHIN AND
MR PAUL
BEVAN
Q322 Chairman: Can I welcome you
to the Committee. Can you start by identifying yourself?
Mr Bevan: I am Paul Bevan. I am
Chief Executive of the South East England Regional Assembly.
Mr Machin: My name is Steve Machin.
I am Chief Executive of the North West Regional Assembly?
Mr Briggs: I am Paul Briggs, Vice
Chairman of the Assembly and Chairman of the Economic and Social
Partners?
Cllr Gibson: Councillor Bob Gibson,
leader of Stockton-on-Tees Borough Council and Chairman of the
North East Regional Assembly.
Cllr Thomas: Arthur Bransby Thomas.
I am a county councillor and a member of cabinet in Wiltshire
County Council. At the present time I chair the West Midlands
Regional Assembly and Chair the English Regional Network.
Q323 Chairman: Thank you very much.
Does anyone want to say anything by way of introduction or are
you happy to go straight to questions?
Mr Bevan: I would welcome an opportunity,
Chairman. From the South East point of view, regionalism was never
meant for us, yet many have been surprised by the way that we
in the South East have engaged with the regional agenda and, despite
the newness of the region, our political scepticism in the region,
the size of the region and, I think, the prosperity of the region,
we have achieved a great deal with slim resources in terms of
policy integration, institution of collaboration, stakeholder
engagement and public recognition all with the current regional
government's arrangements, and by comparison elected assemblies,
I would suggest, have to be worth the cost and disruption they
will involve to improve on those arrangements. At the moment there
is a risk they are something and nothing or, as some members of
the panel might say, some't and nowt.
Q324 Chairman: Anyone else?
Cllr Gibson: Thank you for the
opportunity to be here today to give evidence in support of the
regional government. We are delighted and grateful for the extensions
which have been included in the Bill around housing, planning,
learning skills, etcetera. We will be seeing the influence of
the Bill further as it works its way through Parliament around
transport, connectivity and equality, and, if the referendum is
successful, we look forward to working with Whitehall and Westminster
on the interim arrangements.
Cllr Thomas: Perhaps I could,
Chairman, inform the Committee of the English Regional Network
Structure and its significance as the Chair of the ERN. It is
structured around a collection of assembly member and officer
working groups. It represents all eight English regional assemblies
outside London. It attempts to share good practice across the
regional assemblies and encourage new thinking and research in
areas of concern to the ERN. That is a brief introduction. Thank
you.
Mr Machin: From the perspective
of the North West, we await the Government's statement on when
the North West might be given the opportunity of deciding whether
it wants to carry forward an elected regional assembly. That is
obviously a matter for the people of the North West. The current
uncertainty about the timing of a referendum in the North West,
I think, has been problematic for local government, and some of
the questions I have heard already from the Committee I think
are targeted on that problem of delay. So we would be encouraging
government and we would be very interested in the select committee's
views of the ability of the North West to have the opportunity
of deciding how it was to proceed.
Chairman: Thank you very much for that.
Can I emphasise that if you agree with each other please keep
quiet; if you disagree please try and catch my eye.
Q325 Chris Mole: It looks as though
there is a limited number of detailed powers and resources in
the Bill but a power of general competence. Would you agree that
that is what the elected regional assemblies are going to largely
rely on, and what impact do you think that will have and how will
it add value on the current voluntary arrangements on that basis?
Mr Machin: I think, Chairman,
there is an opportunity to take forward a joining up agenda. Jobs,
housing, access—all these issues are interconnected and
the general powers in the Bill would permit that to move forward.
I think in the first instance of the lifetime of the first elected
assembly there will be a problem of capacity; so adding additional
powers or going beyond the powers in the draft Bill currently,
I think, would have to be, it would have to be very clear that
the assembly was able to discharge them; and I heard health mentioned
a little earlier in addition to the overall powers. I think there
are issues there about capacity certainly for the people of the
North West as we try to make sure that regional economic disparity
is tackled in the region. What we would want to see is delivery
on the ground, and the existing powers may be the things that
we need to focus on at the outset.
Cllr Gibson: We have to remember
that the referendum and regional government is a process and not
an event. If we win the referendum we take the powers that are
in the Bill with us and then, over time, we will be seeking other
powers as the capacity to handle those powers is built into the
system. Successful regional governments throughout Europe did
not happen over night, they evolved over a period of time, evolving
the powers from central government, and that is exactly the process
that should happen in the North East, North West, or wherever.
It is a process and not an event that happens. We will not be
celebrating everything we want on November 5th, although my bonfire
will be for regional government and not for Guy Fawkes.
Cllr Thomas: I think the general
purposes power is welcome but there is a risk, which is that there
are not clear distinctions of responsibilities between different
spheres of government. We have already heard this morning and
in other submissions the fears of local government of duplication
and usurpation, or whatever the word is, of local government powers.
Q326 Chris Mole: So you have got
some specific powers, and then areas where it is more of an influencing
role. There are two schools of thought on the way this might go,
one that it could narrowly focus on the specific powers of an
assembly and the other that it might try and get involved in everything.
Which way do you think it is likely to go?
Mr Machin: I think the evidence
from the current assemblies is that business, social partners,
local authorities, are very clear about the priorities for the
regions: jobs, skills, transport regularly come out at the top
of the powers that people believe need to be addressed regionally
in addition to stakeholders at national level. The North West
Regional Assembly has active membership from chambers of commerce,
the North West Business Leadership Team, voluntary sector organisations
as well as 46 local authorities. The problems we have in the North
West are the west-coast mainline, the road network, ports and
airports in terms of transport, issues about jobs, goods and market,
people to work and then skilling the region and making sure that
the higher education institutions are able to retain and attract
graduates, I think give enough of a base for that narrow focus
at the outset. As I say, there is an issue about capacity in the
first instance. A regional body cannot do everything from scratch,
nor should it seek to do so, and there is also an issue about
delivery. So, rather than adding partners or debating additional
factors that need to be taken forward, I think there is a job
to be done on the ground in a very specific way.
Cllr Gibson: Can we kill the myth
that regional government is about to steal all the powers from
local government. It is not. It has a strategic role in the main,
and I cannot see anything in the Bill that indicates to me that
the powers have been taken away from local government and given
to regional government. The Regional Assembly North East, the
biggest supporters of the Regional Assembly over the last 20 years,
have been the Association of North East Councils, mainly council
leaders and deputy leaders who would not have gone this far with
the regional government if there had been any indication at all
that we would lose powers from local government to a regional
body. That is not true; it is a myth, a red herring.
Q327 Mr Clelland: Is Councillor Gibson
suggesting that the general powers of regional assemblies should
be extended in the Bill that comes before Parliament?
Cllr Gibson: I think the weakness
in the Bill and the powers is around transport and connectivity.
I think it is a weakness and has been a weakness for many, many
years. The government's strategies around transport tend to be
around congestion in the South East and not the regional economic
development of the North East, and that has been a huge problem
for us over many, many years. We see regional government beginning
to put that right. We have to remember that we are the poorest
region in the country. Your own select committee here indicated
that quite clearly. The point was well made. Since then, those
two years, we have become poorer. Nothing has happened. The drive
for regional government, the imperative for regional government
has been there in the North East for the last 20 years. It is
about self-preservation at the end of the day. We are not doing
well under the present system and have not done so for many, many
years. During the eighties the North East was almost entirely
wiped out, the whole of the Durham and Northumberland mining,
the shipping, the steel, went. We are still recovering from that,
and that is wrong. Regional government we see as an opportunity
to put that to rights.
Cllr Thomas: Could I come in on
the previous question which you asked about the moving of powers
from local government. There certainly is a perception out there
that that is something which occurs when this sort of devolution
occurs, but let us be quite clear on this. The regions at the
present time, the ERN is quite clear about its position. Devolution
should mean that power is devolved from the centre to the regions
and not take local authorities up to the regions. The delegation
of power should be made absolutely clear within the Bill.
Mr Machin: If I could add, Chairman,
the evidence from Scotland, where the fears were exactly that
when the devolutionary arrangements were extended to Scotland
that the Scottish Parliament would suck up powers from local authorities
in Scotland, did prove to be unfounded. What did happen was that
Scottish authorities, local authorities, found themselves far
more subject to the need to provide resources to be consulted—and
this ties in with the earlier session—and also to think
through their own relationship with, as it was in Scotland, the
national level. So the similar issue in Scotland was not founded,
but there are, I think, needs for local government to begin to
organise itself regionally in the North East and in the North
West so we get the opportunity to carry out a different role with
relation to the regional level.
Q328 Mr Clelland: Given the importance
in terms of national, regional and local services, is it realistic
for the government to restrict the powers of regional government
in areas of health and education?
Mr Machin: I think that there
are issues in health where you could move forward; certainly public
health, crime and disorder, regionalisation of the criminal justice
system and public health issues do all have a common thread. We
know in the North West there are 1,050 different wards, and, if
you plot them on a geographic mapping system, incidents of crime
and disorder, incidents at which the fire and rescue management
service attend, areas where public health issues are paramount
are all the same wards; and you know this from your own constituency
experience. So it is possible to extend some of those issues at
regional level, but I think it needs to be done with caution.
Q329 Mr Clelland: I was interested
reading the North East Regional Assembly's arguments about equality
and diversity. As Robert Gibson is aware, the draft Bill only
requires councils to have regard to equality in numbers. Would
you like to say why you feel the Regional Assembly in the North
East thinks that this should be extended to a primary duty?
Cllr Gibson: I think we would
take it further than that. We are looking to mirror that clause
in the Welsh Assembly Bill that talks of—that brings about
an absolute duty on regional government around diversity and equality.
I think it is a huge opportunity to make it happen, to set the
Bill to make it happen. We do not try hard enough to bring women
and ethnic minority groups into mainstream politics. A lot of
work has gone on but I think it is not the work that should be
done. We have an opportunity here to mirror the Welsh Assembly
and have written into the Bill a clause around equalities, diversities
etc. The Welsh Assembly is congratulated by me on many occasions
for achieving 50% of women in Parliament. I think that is absolutely
wonderful and terrific and should be happening everywhere.
Mr Machin: It is absolutely key,
Chairman, in the North West. In my constituency three miles from
the centre of Manchester there are: 42 different languages spoken;
three different Somali communities; a huge diversity in the region;
45 people per square kilometre in Blackpool; 2.2 people per square
kilometre in the Eden Valley. There is an absolute need to make
sure the Bill is used to extend the opportunity of tackling that
democratic deficit, as well as dealing with regional economic
disparity.
Mr Bevan: I think the question
of stakeholder involvement is closely related to this. No matter
what sort of electoral system one has you can only achieve the
representational involvement of diverse and minority groups through
some additional mechanism. I think the stakeholder participation
arrangements are simply permissive in the Bill and there should
be some scrutiny on regional assemblies perhaps through a comprehensive
performance assessment, so that while you are allowing them the
diversity of arrangements to be stakeholders those are tested
regularly and routinely in a public way.
Q330 Sir Paul Beresford: Do you agree
that one way of testing would be to have a sunset referendum clause
in the Bill so after two sessions the public who voted, or did
not vote as the case may be, have a second shot? They might not
like you once they have flavoured you. I have to say in the South
East, and I think we have had brave words from your assembly,
most people have never heard of it and do not know anything about
it and it is just non-existent.
Mr Bevan: Our research undertaken
by MORI shows that awareness of the assembly is greater: 29% after
four years of existence in a very strategic and pretty esoteric
public role; and greater knowledge of the regional assembly than
of the Government Office, or indeed of the Regional Development
Agencies. A majority of people, it shows in the MORI survey, would
support an elected regional assembly in the South East. I accept
that these figures are lower than in other regions and there is
a debate to be had. I think the opposition tends to be overstated.
Mr Briggs: I would just like to
take up and expand on the stakeholder involvement.
Q331 Chairman: Very briefly, or we
are going to run out of time and there will be issues you would
liked to have been asked about which we may not get to.
Mr Briggs: My main point is we
have submitted what the Economic and Social Partners actually
have said in some depth on how stakeholders should engage. I think
the point there we would like to see is the establishment of a
statutory right of engagement. It is very general at the moment.
We would like it to be stiffened up with more guarantees. I think
we would also like to see an independent operation to enable stakeholders
to engage with funding to replicate that—not necessarily
in the form of the Scottish and Welsh, but similar to the Welsh
Partners Unit.
Q332 Chris Mole: The North East Assembly
has used the phrase "the process and order of events",
so presumably you are happy with the powers in the draft Bill
for the Secretary of State to impose additional functions and
duties? Does everybody share the view that it is desirable? How
would you see those being used?
Cllr Gibson: We chose regional
assembly on a draft Bill and had absolutely no powers and we were
quite happy with that. We see it as a way out in the North East.
We chose it without powers and were determined we had fought that
far and we would fight on. The powers that have been added on
since then are a bonus for us. We are delighted they have been
added in. It is a process of evolvement over years. Powers will
devolve from Whitehall and Westminster to regional government,
there is no doubt about that—it will happen.
Mr Bevan: I think the Government
has to have the right to make decisions about which level of government
does what; but the capacity to make those changes—which
are pretty important constitutional changes—should be subject
to parliamentary scrutiny and debate.
Q333 Chairman: Scrutiny or parliamentary
legislation?
Mr Bevan: To parliamentary debate.
I am not quite sure how that would operate.
Q334 Chris Mole: The other side of
that coin is the powers that the Secretary of State has to prevent
assemblies from doing things under the general powers. Are you
happy with those or does that undermine your vision of change
within your regions?
Mr Machin: I would think some
limitation on the powers is necessary, to build trust and confidence
at the outset. As I have said already, Chairman, and I am aware
of your strictures about repetition, there is a job to do at a
key regional and strategic level. That must be the test. There
must be a subsidiarity test for local government. Regional assemblies
can be successful in delivering key powers on jobs and transport
in the northern regions, which are absolutely vital for tackling
that regional economic disparity. I think it is necessary to do
that to build trust and confidence. In the first term of an elected
regional assembly the public and representatives at national level
will be looking to see the assemblies deliver. The last thing
we want is a debate about additional powers, or similar debates
that have happened in the other devolved parliaments inside the
UK. It is a matter of delivery and beginning to tackle, together
with co-operation at national level, the economic conditions in
northern regions.
Q335 Mr Sanders: The majority of
the regions are likely not to have an elected assembly for a long
time, if at all. How should non-elected assemblies be developed
to take on a broader role so that their regions do not fall behind?
Cllr Thomas: The English Regions
Network certainly believes that this is one of the big omissions
from this Bill. An opportunity has been missed to place statutory
duties and responsibilities on the statute book for the non-elected
assemblies. We have a situation where assemblies are moving forward
at their own rates. It may well be, as you have just indicated,
that some regions may not wish to go along the elected assembly
route. It is important, in our view, that Government states very
clearly what the responsibilities will be of the partnership assembly
we have at the present time.
Mr Bevan: One of the most important
things that the Government could do is make sure that all departments
are engaged, and not just the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister.
We have found that the regional agenda for many departments begins
and ends with RDAs and the possibility of elected assemblies.
If you look at the public service provision that ODPM has on this,
the governance arrangements still begin and end with elected regional
assemblies. It must ensure that other departments of government
recognise the role that partnership assemblies or voluntary chambers
can play in regional governance now and in the future.
Q336 Mr Clelland: Given the fact
that the Government has decided the assembly should be restricted
to 25-35 members, what problems does that give in terms of representation
of huge constituencies?
Mr Machin: Certainly in a region
like the North West, Chairman, it will cause enormous problems.
The areas of the North West which are predominantly rural—and
even areas in West Cumbria which, despite their geographic separation,
are predominantly manufacturing based—are going to find
their needs (which range from rural issues through to manufacturing
and traditional industries) will need to be assured that representation
will be there. Already the Committee has identified that in a
35 member body; 25 will have a geographic-specific constituency
of, let us say 290,000; the other 10 from the top-up list will
have a region-wide constituency. They are likely, I think, in
terms of the electoral system that has been chosen, to be from
these smaller parties; so you will therefore have the situation
(which is on occasion replicated with the Liberal Democrat Party)
where in a region like the North West you have one Liberal Democrat
MEP who is covering a region of 6.7 million people, with an economy
of £77 billion. I think there are real issues there. The
North West Regional Assembly believes that for a region of our
size a regional body should have a membership of around 50.
Cllr Gibson: Our own view from
the North East is that we are seeking one from every constituency.
It will cause problems but it means the interface with the MPs,
the local authorities, stakeholders and the thematic groups—
Q337 Chairman:— you are asking
for more.
Cllr Thomas: The assumption that
almost one size will fit all is incorrect. The regions are as
different as chalk and cheese in terms of their size and geographic
areas. If we are talking about representation within the region
then 25-30 is not enough for the larger regions.
Q338 Mr Clelland: What about implications
for the North East with the proposal of the local government system
of Cabinet-style government, both in terms of the regional government
giving 3-7 members performing the executive? What implications
does that have?
Cllr Gibson: One of the models
of regional government we are looking at are thematic groups around
education, housing, community safety etc, with elected members,
and the brightest and best in education and health working with
them on strategically planning health, education etc right across
the region. It brings the elected members, stakeholders and experts
in various fields together so that everybody has a handle on what
is happening in the North East. It is a model which works very
well in local government. I am not saying it will be the
model but it is a model we are looking at as a regional government
model which has a shared responsibility among the elected members,
stakeholders etc.
Q339 Chairman: The Additional Member
system of elections—thumbs up or thumbs down?
Mr Bevan: There ought to be an
opportunity here to see if the stakeholder involvement could be
addressed, in our view. At the moment we combine constituencies
of place—local government representatives with constituencies
of interest, business and voluntary organisations. There is an
opportunity it seems to us to experiment with the top-up list
that draws from constituencies of interest specifically.
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