Examination of Witnesses (Questions 420
- 439)
WEDNESDAY 15 SEPTEMBER 2004
RT HON
NICK RAYNSFORD
MP AND MR
IAN SCOTTER
Q420 Mr Betts: When would you hope
actually to be able to fill in the remaining clauses in the Bill?
Are we likely to get them well before we get to Second Reading
in Parliament, if that is the process?
Mr Raynsford: Our intention is
that if there is a yes vote in the referendum in the North-East
on 4 November, we will then, subject obviously to the Queen's
Speech, introduce a full Bill, including the elements that we
have identified as necessary to be added and that that would be
introduced in Parliament in the shape that you have described,
so it can be debated at the Second Reading.
Q421 Mr Betts: So that would be the
final Bill?
Mr Raynsford: Yes.
Q422 Mr Betts: In terms of the specific
details of many of the points, obviously we are going to have
to rely on secondary legislation for those. Have we any timetable
for the production of secondary legislation, bearing in mind that
often contains the detailed points that are going to determine
precisely how an assembly would work? Are we going to get that
legislation at the same time as the final version of the Bill
or are we going to have to wait until we get into committee before
we start to see the elements of it, or even indeed later?
Mr Raynsford: My aim is to do
just the same as I have done with other major pieces of legislation
that I have been responsible for, including the Local Government
Act when that went through Parliament, which also had a substantial
amount of secondary legislation, which is to ensure that members
of the committee scrutinising the Bill in detail can see that
draft secondary legislation in the form of draft regulations well
before they come to debate it in committee.
Q423 Chairman: Are you happy about
the impact it may have on local government in the North-East?
Assuming that there is a yes vote, assuming that you try and get
legislation in early in the next session, there is a possibility
that that legislation might be interrupted by a General Election,
is there not? Does that not then leave us with some possibility
that setting it up and reorganising local government in the North-East
may be a somewhat lengthy process?
Mr Raynsford: I hope not. Obviously
I cannot comment on the possible timings of general elections,
which are not my decision. What I can say is that our intention
is to bring in legislation, as I have said in response to Clive
Betts's question, and in parallel we would be asking the Boundary
Committee to do the necessary work to make recommendations on
the boundaries for the first election to the elected regional
assembly. That work will have to take place in any case, and that
would be ongoing in the early months of next year, assuming there
is a yes vote. It is certainly our intention, if possible, to
allow an elected assembly, if there is a yes vote, to be elected
in 2006—that has been our objective—and for the local
government reorganisation that will go in parallel with that to
be operating to a similar timescale.
Q424 Mr Clelland: As Ron Davies once
famously put it: devolution is a process, not an event. I suppose,
following Scotland, Wales, the GLA and indeed even Northern Ireland,
that the Government's policy of strengthening the mechanisms for
regional government would naturally follow on from that. How might
the outcome of the referendum in the North East impact on the
future direction of that general policy?
Mr Raynsford: I might answer that
by saying that I hope the process will not quite be as complicated
as it was for the person you quoted. I sincerely hope that what
we will see is a move to a confident assembly in the North East
elected in 2006 and getting to grips with the very important responsibilities
that the assembly will have, notably to help economic development
in the region, which we know in the past has lagged behind other
regions in the country; there is a gap in terms of economic performance
which has to be addressed. There are very encouraging signs at
the moment, in my view, of revival in the North East economy,
and that is a real incentive for the assembly to get to grips
with that challenge and to build on the work of the RDA—ONE
NorthEast—and the other partners, economic and social partners,
to drive the region's economy. There are many other responsibilities,
as you know, which the assembly will have. That does not mean
that there are not going to be requests, demands for additional
powers. I think that is part and parcel of the process. We have
heard that from the Mayor of London seeking additional powers;
we have heard it from the Richard Committee commissioned in respect
of Wales. I cannot anticipate that but all I will say is that
there is a very big job to be done and I am confident that the
assembly, if it is elected, if the referendum is a yes vote and
therefore the assembly proceeds, will have a great deal to get
on with in its first session.
Q425 Mr Clelland: I was not specifically
thinking of extended powers, although the Minister is well aware
of my enthusiasm for local government and I would like to see
extended powers in due course. The Bill only provides for one
model of regional government; that is, elected regional assemblies.
It has been put to the Committee in evidence that the Bill should
really reflect different forms of regional governments: for instance,
giving statutory powers to the existing voluntary regional assemblies.
What does the Minister think of that?
Mr Raynsford: I had the responsibility,
pleasure and privilege of taking the Greater London Authority
Bill through Parliament, which I was told at the time was the
longest Bill to be introduced since the Government of India Act
of 1936. I said on that occasion that that was a bit of a handful
and I did not really want it to be complicated by other matters.
I take a rather similar view about this Bill, which will be a
complex piece of legislation. I do not think it would be appropriate
for it to extend beyond its remit, which is to enable elected
regional assemblies to be established. That is what we promised
we would do if there was a yes vote in the referendum. There are
other issues, of course, which people always want to tack on to
legislation, but, as you will know only too well, that can make
the passage of the legislation quite a complex process. In my
case, my priority is to get the main piece of legislation through,
assuming there is a yes vote.
Q426 Chairman: Is that not your fault
when it is such a long Bill? You are rather acting as a nanny.
You are going to devolve power to the children but then tell them
that they have got to spend their pocket money exactly this way
and that way. Would it not be much better, if you are going to
devolve power to the regions, actually to let them decide things
like their own scrutiny, governance and those sorts of issues,
rather than lay it down in such detail in the Bill?
Mr Raynsford: They will decide
a large number of issues but within a framework designed to ensure
that there is some national consistency.
Q427 Chairman: Would not a "straightjacket"
be a better word than a framework?
Mr Raynsford: No, it certainly
is not. This is an exercise in devolution and in just the same
way as with London, the Mayor and Assembly in London have substantial
powers and have used those powers very successfully in many ways
but they operate within a framework that ensures national coherence.
In exactly that way we want the elected regional assemblies to
work within a national framework because if there is a yes vote
in other regions—in Yorkshire, the Humber and in the North
West and possibly other regions subsequently—there will
be other elected regional assemblies. There has to be some consistency
in the pattern in different regions of the country.
Q428 Mr Clelland: We listened with
interest to your statement on Monday on the report of the Electoral
Commission. It seemed to make clear, to me anyway, that regardless
of the outcome of the referendum in the North East, the referenda
in the North West and in Yorkshire would go ahead. Is that the
case: if the North East referendum were to be lost, would you
still go ahead with those two referenda?
Mr Raynsford: We have pledged
that the people of the North West and Yorkshire and Humber will
have the opportunity to vote in a referendum as to whether they
want to elect a regional assembly, and that is our intention and
that is how we are going ahead. It is simply a question of getting
the mechanism right to hold the election in a way that does encourage
maximum participation in the light of the Electoral Commission's
report and proposals for a new foundation model, which they expect
to be setting out next March.
Q429 Mr Clelland: Regardless of the
result in the North East, those will still go ahead?
Mr Raynsford: Yes.
Q430 Mr Betts: In practical terms,
therefore, are we saying, given that the Electoral Commission
is going to report in March, and then there is going to be some
discussion presumably about what they report on, that a referendum
in Yorkshire could not go ahead until the autumn of next year?
Would it be reasonable to say that?
Mr Raynsford: I think that would
be a reasonable assumption because there is a period of time,
as you will know, from the laying of the orders to the referendum.
The orders allowing a North East referendum were agreed by Parliament
before the end of July; the referendum will be held on 4 November.
If you think of a similar timescale, then I think your assumption
is probably an entirely fair one.
Q431 Chris Mole: Minister, the policy
document which comes with the draft Bill talks about regional
assemblies being consulted by people working closely with and
supporting the work of various agencies playing a key role in
co-ordinating their work. How does that square with what the Deputy
Prime Minister said in terms of ERAs being able to make a real
difference and being responsible for big strategic decisions?
Mr Raynsford: I think the two
are entirely compatible. It is right that the elected regional
assemblies should set the direction, give the overall policy guidance,
but should work with the partners within the region. It is not
going to be a body that is simply exercising command and control
functions; it will be a body that will build partnerships, that
will work in partnership with business, local authorities and
other stakeholders. That inclusive approach towards engaging stakeholders
is something which I think is very warmly welcomed by most people
who have looked at this model of government. I see this as the
right model for a strategic authority not responsible for day-to-day
local service delivery, not usurping the work of local authorities
but working in partnership to deliver on the objectives which
the regional assembly has set.
Q432 Chris Mole: Clause 43 very broadly
defines the general powers the regional assemblies will have.
Do you think the draft Bill provides a sufficiently clear indication
of what they will actually be able to do with those powers?
Mr Raynsford: I think it has surprised
some people who were suggesting before the Bill was published
that the assemblies would have very limited powers. As you rightly
say, these are broad powers. We do intend to introduce certain
restrictions designed to safeguard local government because one
of the big issues that I have wrestled with, and I know members
of this Committee have been concerned about, is that the assemblies
should not trample on local authorities or try to usurp their
functions. It is right that there should be within legislation
a clear definition of those areas that will be off-limits to the
assembly because they are the core functions of local authorities.
That is something which will need to be defined further. It is
a complex issue, as you will understand, because what we do not
want to do is to discourage partnership working. The definitions
have to be achieved in a way that encourages partnership and co-operation
but prevents the kind of takeover that we have regarded as undesirable.
That will be a limitation on the powers, but otherwise the assembly
will have that broad remit to pursue the environmental, economic
and social wellbeing of its region. I think most people have looked
at that and said that this is a very good definition of what the
objective of an assembly should be.
Q433 Sir Paul Beresford: Will the
limitations be primary or secondary?
Mr Raynsford: They will be primary.
That is one of the items mentioned in the policy statement that
we are intending to include in the Bill when the Bill is finally
introduced.
Q434 Chairman: The only trouble is
they may have all these powers but they will only have 5p, will
they not, on the council tax to pay for it?
Mr Raynsford: No, the North East
Assembly, if we talk about the North East, will have a budget
which it directly controls of more than £0.5 billion; it
will influence a further £600 million worth of expenditure;
it will have very close working partnerships and relationships
with key players who will have a huge impact on spending in the
North East. I see it as having a very important role and, yes,
it will have an ability to raise additional funds, if it chooses
to do so, through precepts on council tax.
Q435 Mr O'Brien: In response to a
question from Chris Mole you referred to statutory guidance. How
prescriptive will this guidance be?
Mr Raynsford: The aim will be
a framework, as I described in response to the earlier question,
to ensure a consistent approach throughout the country, but not
intrusive. We want to give discretion to assemblies to operate
in ways that meet the needs of their region. For example, we say
that there must be provision for engaging stakeholders that is
very much part of the main architecture in which the business
community, voluntary sector, local authorities and others who
have a key role to play in the region should be constructively
engaged. We are leaving it to the assembly themselves to decide
how that is best done. That is a very good example of the approach
we are adopting. Yes, we are requiring certain principles to be
met but allowing a good measure of discretion to the assembly
as to how they shape the arrangements to meet that objective.
Q436 Mr O'Brien: So there will be
no parliamentary scrutiny of this. It will not be included in
the Bill or the secondary legislation?
Mr Raynsford: There will be a
scrutiny function, yes, because the assembly itself is organised
in a way which mirrors the model for local government.
Mr O'Brien: No, I meant parliamentary
scrutiny.
Q437 Chairman: How will Parliament
scrutinise this guidance?
Mr Raynsford: On the guidance,
as I mentioned, for all the secondary legislation, all the statutory
instruments that we intend to make, we will bring drafts forward
so that the members of the committee that will be scrutinising
the legislation will have a good opportunity to see that and comment
on it during the course of the parliamentary passage of the Bill.
Q438 Mr O'Brien: How would you expect
the powers of the elected regional assemblies to evolve over time?
Mr Raynsford: As I said in response
to Dave Clelland's question, I suspect there will be requests
for changes—I think that is almost inevitable in the process—but
I believe there is a coherent and good package of powers contained
in the Bill which will give elected regional assemblies, the first
to come into existence, plenty to get on with in their early years.
I certainly would not envisage any immediate changes beyond the
package that will be put to Parliament when we introduce the Bill.
Q439 Mr O'Brien: What about the Northern
Way?
Mr Raynsford: That, of course,
is a planning and economic development framework which the Deputy
Prime Minister has been developing for all three of the northern
regions. I cannot anticipate the outcome of referendums, and therefore
I cannot say that there will inevitably be three elected regional
assemblies in the north—that would be for the people in
each of the regions to decide—but the Northern Way will
continue irrespective of whether there are one, two or three or
indeed no elected regional assemblies in the north.
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