Examination of Witnesses (Questions 120-128)
MR ARCHIE
ROBERTSON OBE, HIGHWAYS
AGENCY
8 DECEMBER 2004
Q120 Chairman: Mr Robertson, will you
look please at page 34, paragraph 4.7. It says there, "The
Agency knew nothing about a major pop music concert at Stockwood
Park in Luton (close to junction 10a of the M1 that was expected
to attract some 40,000 people) on the same weekend as the Robbie
Williams concerts at Knebworth House until one of its officials
heard a local radio announcement just two weeks before the event
was due to take place." Are you going to insist with these
large events, which are licensed, that at least you are informed
as to what is going on?
Mr Robertson: Yes.
Chairman: Thank you very much.
Q121 Mr Steinberg: Like Mr Williams,
I get the impression from your answers that you are very complacent.
It may well be that you just have this very relaxed way of dealing
with things, but I am sitting here almost as frustrated as I am
when I am in a traffic jam, because you seem to have given no
positive answers to any of the questions that we have asked. Usually
you go away from these meetings feeling at least as though perhaps
something might be done, but I get the impression from you that
still nothing is going to be done; you are still going to continue
in the same sort of relaxed way. I am sorry if I am flogging a
dead horse, but on the lorry issue, you have been asked about
the lorry issue on a number of occasions, and I am not the first
one to mention it, yet you keep saying, "It's nothing to
do with me, guv. It is an enforcement issue." But it is something
to do with you, because it does not have to be an enforcement
issue. There are such things as dedicated lanes, which presumably
you are entitled to bring in after whatever regulations you have
to go through, and that would probably solve the problem. There
is an example of what I see as complacency: "It's nothing
to do with me, guv. It is an enforcement issue," but it is
not. That is the first example, and I would really like a positive
answer that you are actually going to do something about it. Mr
Curry asked you a question, the answer to which seemed to me very
complacent. We know where the black spots are in terms of traffic
coming on to motorways and trunk roads. We know that going down
the western bypass, certain junctions are going to cause huge
problems. You seem to say, "Well, the only thing that would
happen if we did something about it would be that it would cause
a knock-on problem to the minor roads", but surely this proves
that you do not have any liaison with the local authorities. I
would have thought on those particular areas where you know there
are problems, you would liaise with the local authorities on the
minor roads and you would come up with alternative routes, and
tell people there are alternative routes. You do not seem to do
that. On page 39, paragraph 4.30, it more or less infers that
there is just not enough liaison with local authorities to solve
the problems before they actually happen. On the enforcement issue
and on liaison with local authorities, I would like a positive
answer.
Mr Robertson: Dedicated lanes:
we have talked about the trial on the M42 on trucks, which we
will do, if we can get the partners to come with us. We are going
to be recommending high-occupancy vehicle lanes be considered
by the Secretary of State, and that is going up to him very shortly.
We are going to continue working with the sorts of initiatives
that we have had, whether it is hogging the middle lane or whether
it is the trailer lane pilot that we did on the M5. All of those
things are happening now, and going on. We are going to continue
to roll out the active traffic management pilot. I am sorry to
repeat myself. We can put in all of those things, but we are not
proposing to put any of them in in the sense that then channels
a motorist or a truck down one piece of highway from which they
cannot emerge until they get to the next junction, therefore we
are going to be relying on trucks staying in the left-hand lane
as an enforcement matter, although we will provide the signing;
and with high occupancy vehicles lanes, we are going to be relying
on enforcement to check that.
Q122 Mr Steinberg: So you are not going
to have dedicated lanes? That is what you are saying.
Mr Robertson: These are dedicated
lanes.
Q123 Mr Steinberg: That is not what I
would call a dedicated lane. I am referring to a dedicated lane
where a lorry comes on to the motorway in the inside lane and
it says "You are in a dedicated lane now. You cannot go out
of that lane until you are told you can."
Mr Robertson: OK, but if he comes
out of that lane, it is up to him, and it is an enforcement matter.
Mr Bacon: I do not understand that at
all. It is up to him but it is an enforcement matter? What do
you mean?
Mr Steinberg: He means it is up to the
police to ensure it happens.
Q124 Mr Williams: I am still slightly
puzzled about the answer you gave about the cameras, because we
are continually being told that the cameras are primarily to prevent
accidents at black spots, but you said quite clearly that it is
a very small minority of the cameras on motorways that are for
that purpose. Is that correct?
Mr Robertson: The majority of
the cameras on the motorway network are used at road works to
ensure the safety of people going through there. They are used
on the traffic management around the M25 between junctions 10
and 14 in order to ensure that people do not speed beyond the
speed set on the signs, and they will be used on the M42 for the
active traffic management project. So there are enforcement cameras
but they are principally there to control the speed of the traffic
so that we get more through, so they are there for speed control
purposes, not safety. There are some places on the network, either
on trunk roads or on slip roads, for example, where people may
be approaching too quickly, where we will install a camera with
the agreement of the local safety camera partnership, and it is
their camera, their revenue, at the end of the day, not the Highways
Agency's, but we get the benefit of speed control on that particular
junction.
Q125 Mr Williams: I know there are portable
cameras and so on, but do you have the information on all the
fixed cameras on the motorways? I am not asking where they are.
Are you aware of them and do you have a record of them?
Mr Robertson: Yes.
Q126 Mr Williams: In that case, can you
let us have a note afterwards, in the next couple of weeks, saying
how many fixed cameras there are and how many of them are justified
by black spot arguments?
Mr Robertson: OK. [8]
Chairman: Thank you very much.
Q127 Mrs Browning: I wonder, Mr Robertson,
if you would just take a look at the picture, which I think you
provided yourself, on the cover of this report. Look at that chap
in his lovely uniform, sitting there in that control centre. Look
at the amount of data and information there must be on that plethora
of screens in front of him. Ask yourself is all that information
and all that technology used to convey information to the motorist?
From what we have heard this afternoon, it is not. I have to put
to you the sort of investment and the impressive picture on the
front of this bears no relation to the sort of data and the sort
of activity on the ground that one would expect from looking at
the cover of this report. I would like you to take away from me
in your mind, if you would, the fact that what we want to see
is—
Mr Robertson: I think I just need
to clarify something. This is a police control room.
Q128 Mrs Browning: You are going to take
this over, are you not? Is this not going to be your responsibility?
Mr Robertson: I would hope so.
Mrs Browning: This is the sort of thing
that money is being invested in, and when I turn to page 1 and
see that picture of the motorway, again provided by your agency,
with those gantry signs, the quality of the information on those
signs should reflect the investment that has gone in as shown
on the front of that cover.
Chairman: Mr Robertson, thank you very
much for appearing before us. It has been very interesting. The
bottom line, as we read in our brief, is that average traffic
speeds, for example, fell by 6%, 4 miles an hour, between 1995
and 2003, depending on the time of day, and around 7% of the network
suffers from heavy congestion on at least half the days of the
year. So we will be issuing, I hope, a very strong report and
I hope you take note of it. Thank you very much.
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