Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80-99)
FOREIGN AND
COMMONWEALTH OFFICE,
UKVISAS, AND
THE HOME
OFFICE
21 JUNE 2004
Q80 Mr Bacon: Mr Jeffrey, are you a member
of the Asylum Intake Reduction and Secure Borders Subprograms
Board?
Mr Jeffrey: No, I am not.
Q81 Mr Bacon: Is Mr Ken Sutton?
Mr Jeffrey: The position of Mr
Sutton—
Q82 Mr Bacon: Is he a member of the Asylum
Intake Reduction and Secure Borders Subprograms Board?
Mr Jeffrey: The reason I gave
an equivocal answer in that—or began to give one—
Q83 Mr Bacon: Well, you are a witness
for the PAC; we are used to equivocal answers!
Mr Jeffrey: The reason I answered
as I did was that when we first established the Subprograms Board
structure, it was originally intended that Mr Sutton should, as
a senior director, additional to the senior director who chairs
it—
Q84 Mr Bacon: That is the Senior Director
of Operations.
Mr Jeffrey: That is right. As
it happens, he has not become a member and he has not attended
any of these meetings.
Q85 Mr Bacon: Is the Senior Director
of Operations still Brady Clark?
Mr Jeffrey: That is correct.
Q86 Mr Bacon: He chairs the sub-group.
Mr Jeffrey: He does.
Q87 Mr Bacon: Who are the other people
on the sub-group?
Mr Jeffrey: I do not have a full
list immediately accessible to me.
Q88 Mr Bacon: How many of them are there?
Mr Jeffrey: I would think seven
or eight people.
Q89 Mr Bacon: You do not know who they
are?
Mr Jeffrey: The sensible thing
is probably for me to give you a full list.[4]
Q90 Mr Bacon: Thank you; that would be
very kind. Sir Michael, you started by saying that a balance had
to be struck between what you called strong control and good service
to applicants. You had to do both, you said, and one is not more
important than the other. I find that an extraordinary statement
in a way. People want to come here, that is clear; and the numbers
of people who want to come here are increasing. Why should we
compromise the quality of our controls because people want to
come here, which is essentially what you said; there is a balance
to be struck? Why?
Sir Michael Jay: I do not think
it is compromising the quality of our controls. We have two objectives.
One is—
Q91 Mr Bacon: You said there was a balance,
did you not?
Sir Michael Jay: Yes.
Q92 Mr Bacon: You had to have good service
for applicants and strong control.
Sir Michael Jay: Yes. We have
a duty to ensure that those who want to come here—and in
many cases it will be in our interests should come here, and who
have every right to come here, and who satisfy the requirements
to come here—should come here. One purpose of UKvisas is
to ensure that the system operates effectively to enable them
to do so.
Q93 Mr Bacon: This system was not operating
effectively, was it?
Sir Michael Jay: At the same time
we need to ensure that those who are trying to come here for nefarious
purposes, or who do not meet the criteria, should be stopped from
doing so, so that they do not get here. What we need to do is
achieve both those things, which is what I mean by a balance between
them.
Q94 Mr Bacon: That is not what was happening,
was it? You were not achieving your balance.
Sir Michael Jay: Yes.
Q95 Mr Bacon: Reading from appendix 7:
"People were coming here with no appropriate skills in their
chosen business; they did not have credible business plans; many
could speak little or no English . . ." and so on. As a result
of that, and reading from the Sutton report, paragraph 3.6: "While
posts continue to interview and make recommendations for refusal
based on the overall credibility of the applicants . . ."—the
things I have just been reading out—"IND caseworkers
continue to grant the majority of these cases, based on their
strict interpretation of the requirements of the immigration rules.
This in effect meant much of the work being done in posts was
a waste of time." In other words, your staff in your department,
in the Foreign Office, overseas in post, were doing work that
was a waste of time.
Sir Michael Jay: As I and Mr Jeffrey
have accepted, and as the Home Secretary has accepted, there were
flaws in the way in which this system operated, which we are now
going to put right, following Ken Sutton's report.
Q96 Mr Bacon: When did you first—
Sir Michael Jay: I was not answering
the question you asked; I was answering in the more general term,
affecting all of the UKvisas operations, where I do believe we
have to achieve both proper control and an effective service;
and that is what we are trying to do.
Q97 Mr Bacon: When was the first time
you knew about this organised scam that was going on?
Sir Michael Jay: The first time
I was aware of the issue at all was when I was alerted to the
fact that the entry clearance manager in Bucharest had admitted
to talking to Mr—
Q98 Mr Bacon: When was that?
Sir Michael Jay: That was on 19
March.
Q99 Mr Bacon: Of this year, 2004?
Sir Michael Jay: That was 19 March
of this year, yes.
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