Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20-39)
MINISTRY OF
DEFENCE
25 OCTOBER 2004
Q20 Mr Williams: I do not want opinions;
I want facts. It says in paragraph 3.42 that although 100 essential
elements were identified at the time the contract was about to
be placed, up to 45 of them were not covered in the actual contract
that was placed. That, again, is factually correct, is it not?
Otherwise you would not have signed the contract— Paragraph
3.42?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: That is correct,
yes.
Q21 Mr Williams: —for the 45 elements.
It also goes on to say, "The Department has been unable to
discover an audit trail to explain why no action has been taken
to contract for the remaining elements." Is that correct?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: That is correct.
Q22 Mr Williams: So we are agreed on
that. That sounds pretty comprehensive to me, particularly in
terms of what the RAF have said and what the Chairman has said
about the way in which it can be operated. Let us then switch
to the Lynx. Here we should be dealing with something much more
straightforward. It is a relatively unsophisticated aircraft compared
with the new Chinook. If we go to paragraph 4.7, is it not a fact
that in 1991 operation GRANBY recognised shortfalls in the capability
or protection provided for by helicopters? That is stated there,
is it not, in 1991?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: Correct.
Q23 Mr Williams: Is it not a fact that
these included communications? Yes or no? It says it there.
Sir Kevin Tebbit: Yes, I agree.
Q24 Mr Williams: I cannot hear if you
are not answering. I do not want you to be in disagreement on
anything?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: No, but I am
not here simply to repeat things.
Q25 Mr Williams: Helicopter protection?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: Yes.
Q26 Mr Williams: And crew protection
from chemical, biological and nuclear warfare tanks. That was
in 1991. So why had nothing been done about it, or little been
done about it, by the time we went into Iraq?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: It is not the
case that nothing has been done about it. A considerable amount
was done about it. We have had to meet urgent operational requirements,
I agree, and we have had to put extra work into it. Our people
were not at risk through—
Q27 Mr Williams: I do not want to go
off—
Sir Kevin Tebbit: You are asking
me but you are not allowing me to answer, Mr Williams.
Q28 Mr Williams: I am trying to speak
to the facts?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: So am I, but
there are facts and there are opinions, and you are putting the
facts in an opinionated way.
Q29 Mr Williams: And you have put a supplementary
report in and you have had every opportunity to put any other
opinions in that you want. I just want to clarify the points in
this report before I come to the actual point of my question.
Is it not a fact, as declared in this, that because of these short-comings
and because, in addition to all of these very important short-comings,
you were actually short of sand filters, that you were only able
to field 24 of your fleet of Lynx helicopters?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: The Assistant
Chief of Air Staff has told me that the NBC protection for our
helicopter force is as good as any in the world. That is the answer
to your NBC question. It is inherently difficult to guarantee
total nuclear and biological protection.
Q30 Mr Williams: But, like in the tanks,
they are having to have individual protection, which makes it
much more difficult in operational terms for a pilot or for a
tank commander?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: Increased protection
was provided.
Q31 Mr Williams: Is it not a fact that,
because of your requirement that these standards should be met,
you were only able to supply a fleet of 24 Lynx helicopters, whereas
you felt that 33 would have been needed? That is stated in the
Report, is it not?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: Yes, we were
in the process of upgrading facilities, yes.
Q32 Mr Williams: Sand filters do not
take much upgrading, do they? Let us face it, like body-armour,
it is not the most difficult piece of equipment to get, but a
very important piece of equipment that was not used?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: I am not sure
if you are an expert, Mr Williams, are you?
Mr Williams: No, I do not suppose you
are actually?
Q33 Chairman: I do not think there is
any point in trading insults.
Sir Kevin Tebbit: I am not trying
to trade insults, I am trying to answer the question.
Chairman: I think you should both calm
down.
Q34 Mr Williams: I want factual answers
but he wants to go off on one of his jaunts because he knows we
have only got 10 or 15 minutes on the service! It says here in
paragraph 4.9, and you signed up to it, that "Having given
up six sand filters to equip the Commando Helicopter", bla,
bla, bla, "sufficient filters remained for 3 Regiment, Army
Air Corps to deploy only 12 Lynx aircraft." That is stated
there and you signed up to it. "Ordinarily", it goes
on to say, "the Department would have wished to deploy its
entire Lead Aviation Task Force, including 23 Lynx helicopters."
You do not disagree with that?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: This is correct.
Q35 Mr Williams: That is correct. "Therefore,
rather than the mission determining the force package, the lack
of suitably-equipped aircraft limited one of the principal weapon
systems available to the Air Assault Brigade." That is an
appalling indictment, is it not?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: I do not think
it is, no.
Q36 Mr Williams: You do not?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: No.
Q37 Mr Williams: Not even with aircraft
of the proven capability of Lynx?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: We could not
predict the precise timing of our next operation or where it would
take place. The fitting of sand filters was a programme which
was already in place. The operation arose at short notice and
in the time available this number was provided. We got 30—
Q38 Mr Williams: It was very naughty
of our enemies to create a situation where we had to operate virtually
. . . They really should give us a predictable kind of war?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: Military operations
are perhaps not quite as predictable as some other activities
that are required. We did get sets of sand filters very quickly
during the operation, 30 extra were provided, and the future Rotorcraft
that we are talking about will have sand filters and Defensive
Aids suites as normal.
Q39 Mr Williams: That is very reassuring
for the future, and that is good, but it was 1991 when it was
first pointed out that these things were needed. The Department
has been somewhat dilatory in making sure they were available,
has it not?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: I would not
accept that either.
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