Examination of Witnesses (Questions 40-59)
MINISTRY OF
DEFENCE
25 OCTOBER 2004
Q40 Mr Williams: You do not?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: No.
Q41 Mr Williams: You think that something
that was recommended in 1991, that was obvious as a result of
an exercise to test the capability of our equipment in 1991, has
not been acted on by the time we went into Iraq and you do not
think that that shows any sign of dilatoriness on the part of
the Department?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: We have to prioritise,
and that does not just mean costs, it also means the availability
of air-frames in order to have these modifications put in them.
After 1991 we did not operate in the desert again; we operated
in the Balkans and we operated in Afghanistan, which were different
scenarios. Perhaps you can understand why it was not necessary—
Q42 Mr Williams: You sound like British
Rail saying it is the wrong kind of snow? The British Army is
supposed to be able to operate anywhere it is needed to operate
in the world, is it not? Therefore in 13 years not to have taken
on board the recommendations that were made in 1991 is more than
dilatory; it is down right absolute incompetence. Can I ask the
question I want to ask, and you can go round this as much as you
like: has anyone been sacked for either of these fiascos?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: No, they have
not.
Q43 Mr Williams: Has anyone resigned
for either of these fiascos?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: No, they have
not.
Q44 Mr Williams: Has anyone taken early
retirement for any of these fiascos?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: No, they have
not.
Q45 Mr Williams: Do you not think perhaps
you should consider your position?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: I do not believe
these are fiascos.
Q46 Mr Williams: You do not?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: There is a certain
question of funding, Mr Williams. We have to do what we can within
our resources and prioritise, and, as I say, the operations from
1991 were not in the desert, they were elsewhere. I do take your
point that ideally we should be equipped for all environments—
Q47 Mr Williams: Perhaps if you did not
spend £205 million on the Chinooks that cannot fly and had
bothered to put a bit of protection into the helicopters that
you had that could fly and to protect the pilots you already had,
at least the soldiers who went in at the start of the war in Iraq
would have had a proper air support?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: I think they
did have proper air support and it was a successful operation.
There is no suggestion that that military operation was in any
way endangered by lack of adequate military equipment. As I have
explained, in many areas our forces performed with equipment better
than other forces, and very well equipped ones too, with very
large budgets indeed.
Q48 Mr Williams: Can I ask you if the
helicopter force you now have operating there is adequate both
for the southern Iraq operational zone where we are at the moment
and the new zone the Black Watch are about to go into? Can we
at least have an assurance that it is adequate for both of those
battle theatres?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: May I ask the
Air-Marshal to give you that answer, because some of the questions
you ask me are better answered by the military.
Q49 Mr Williams: I am not demanding you
answer. If someone else can give better answers, I am all too
happy.
Air Vice-Marshal Paul Luker: The
aircraft that we have deployed in Iraq are as well protected as
any other aircraft in the field.
Q50 Mr Williams: I am asking whether
you have got enough of them now. We have moved beyond that. The
question I am asking is: are you sure that those that we do have,
adequately protected and so on, that they are now capable of covering
both our existing and our new limited operational zone where our
Scots colleagues are deployed?
Air Vice-Marshal Paul Luker: Yes,
I am content that they are quite capable.
Mr Williams: You are content that they
are. Thank you Chairman?
Q51 Chairman: That was a robust exchange!
There is nothing wrong with that, but I am anxious that you should
be treated fairly. Is there anything you wish to add that you
felt you could not because time was pressing after that exchange?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: I think it would
be helpful to move on, Mr Chairman.
Q52 Mrs Browning: I think for the record
of the Committee I should declare that within the last month I
have been a guest to dinner with the Commander of the Allied Rapid
Reaction Corps, who I know in a private capacity, at which I discussed
the matter before the Committee with him and other officers. Sir
Kevin, I wonder if I could, before I get onto the issue I want
to ask you about, refer you to page 21, 3.11, because you responded
to the Chairman about there being no impact in Iraq, but if you
look at that particular section, there are several matters to
do with Iraq, such as the problems of desert flying and the lack
of resources for sufficient training, the fact that the Army Air
Corps was transported by ship rather than air, losing 21 days
of training time, and also the fact that the 3 Regiment Army Air
Corps were unable to qualify all of its aircrew for night flying,
reducing the operational flexibility. That does not look much
to me like nothing wrong with the contribution that they made,
because they were clearly hampered by their lack of training?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: I think they
were hampered by the short notice that was affecting all the operations
in moving into that particular theatre.
Q53 Mrs Browning: Why then would they
go by boat instead of plane? Why would that be compounded by the
length of time they took to travel there when they could have
been using that as training time?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: I do not have
an immediate answer for you about that. We have gone through,
of course, all of these issues in the hearing on Operation TELIC,
and this is not actually a hearing about Operation TELIC, so,
I must say, my memory would need refreshing as to why they went
by sea rather than by land; but clearly, to get all the forces
into that theatre in the time available, can I remind you that
we got as much equipment into theatre then as we got in Operation
GRANBY in 1991 in half the time; so the idea that we were not
quickly getting assets into theatre is not correct, but in terms
of how individual units were transported, I cannot comment on
that in detail at this stage.
Q54 Mrs Browning: I just asked you about
it—I was not going to, but I just asked you about it because
of your response to the Chairman. I will move on, if I may, to
the area I particularly want to cover. How many Apache helicopters
have now been delivered?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: Delivered? We
have all of them.
Q55 Mrs Browning: How many of them are
in storage?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: I could not
give you a precise figure at the moment. What I said was that
we now have an initial operating capability of Apaches and, progressively,
from now until early 2007, they will be fully fielded.
Q56 Mrs Browning: You will recall that
in the Report it was suggested that these helicopters going into
storage would need to be used and cannibalised for spares. Is
that actually happening?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: That is a rather
pejorative use of the phrase. I am not aware of using them for
spares.
Q57 Mrs Browning: It is a pretty important
question? Was there not a problem—
Sir Kevin Tebbit: The answer is,
"No", as far as I am aware.
Q58 Mrs Browning: Was there not a problem
with procurement in terms of spares?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: There was a
problem of procurement in terms of spares, in the sense that the
spares support contract was one which was very expensive when
first proposed and we have gone an alternative route, but the
use of spares from one aircraft to support another is not necessarily
a bad thing. I am not quite sure what the thrust of your question
is.
Q59 Mrs Browning: Basically what I am
asking is that you have procured these helicopters and, if the
ones that have gone into storage are now being used in this way
to provide spares, I think it would be useful for the Committee
to know, first of all, how many are in storage and if that is
the use they have been put to: because it was flagged up in the
National Audit Office Report that that was a likely use of the
helicopters that were going into storage?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: Some obviously
will be, but as of now—
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