Examination of Witnesses (Questions 120-139)
MINISTRY OF
DEFENCE
25 OCTOBER 2004
Q120 Mr Bacon: They always do.
Sir Kevin Tebbit: Not necessarily.
Sometimes people do not behave with the best intentions.
Q121 Mr Bacon: You mean there is mendacity
inside the MOD? I cannot believe it!
Sir Kevin Tebbit: I know we do
not do it!
Q122 Mr Bacon: You mentioned a report—and
I am looking at the Defence Magazine of April this year—which
at the time of the National Audit Office Report being published
said that, "The Ministry of Defence is close to completing
a wide ranging study into its battlefield helicopters requirements."
That is now complete?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: That is the
future Rotorcraft study. It has moved to the next stage, the project
definition stage, I think; and so we expect to take decisions
on it between now and next Spring.
Q123 Mr Bacon: This of course was in
the Press so you cannot necessarily believe it, but when it says,
" . . . is close to completing a wide ranging study"
is a bit loose. It was not actually close to completing it?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: It depends what
you mean. I expect decisions to be taken by Ministers on what
we are going to do by next Spring.
Q124 Mr Bacon: You mentioned the Safety
Authority and you said that there were problems inside the Safety
Authority. Do you mean the people who promulgate what UK defence
standards are and the extent to which they were or were not liaising
with the Chinook project team?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: It does seem
that was rather weak during this project.
Q125 Mr Bacon: But that would be a generic
problem that would have affected the Sea Wolf missile potentially
as well, or indeed any project?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: They are not
just one person, there are different people involved in this.
Q126 Mr Bacon: There are people who wear
a hat that says "Safety Authority (Chinook)".
Sir Kevin Tebbit: That is right.
Q127 Mr Bacon: And people who wear a
hat that says "Safety Authority (Sea Wolf)".
Sir Kevin Tebbit: Certainly, "Air
Assistance".
Q128 Mr Bacon: Sir Peter got somebody
who said (Sea Wolf), who basically was on the ball and you are
saying that the (Chinook) people were not so good; is that basically
what you are saying?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: I would not
necessarily make that comparison; that is not one that I have
made. I am just saying that the review indicated several areas
where there did not seem to be as close dialogue between the project
team and the certifying authorities than perhaps there should
have been. Certainly with the benefit of hindsight there should
have been.
Q129 Mr Bacon: Mr Luker, can I ask you
a question? The Chairman said earlier that you have to look out
of the window to see how high up you are; is that correct?
Air Vice Marshal Luker: In the
Chinook Mk3?
Q130 Mr Bacon: Yes.
Air Vice Marshal Luker: No.
Q131 Mr Bacon: It is not?
Air Vice Marshal Luker: No, it
is a fully instrumented cockpit.
Q132 Mr Bacon: So you can actually fly
it along and you can see that you are at 570 feet 1,234 feet,
whatever it is?
Air Vice Marshal Luker: Exactly.
Mr Bacon: I had hoped so. Those are all
my questions, Chairman.
Q133 Chairman: Thank you very much. But
the fact remains, Air Vice Marshal, that for safety reasons you
cannot fly this helicopter when it is cloudy; is that correct?
Air Vice Marshal Luker: That is
also correct.
Chairman: Mr Jenkins.
Q134 Mr Jenkins: Sir Kevin, when you
started you told us that things are going to get much better in
the future. Something sprung to mind, have you heard the phrase,
"things can only get better"?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: Things are getting
better now.
Q135 Mr Jenkins: I began to think that
maybe you got brainwashed somewhere along the line with regard
to that slogan. Sometimes it does not get better.
Sir Kevin Tebbit: £3.7 billion
of good equipment was delivered to the frontline this last year.
We are discussing a failure here, we are not discussing the successes.
Q136 Mr Jenkins: We only look at failures,
that is what we are here for, in effect, is it not? One of the
things that sprung to my mind when you were answering Mr Williams
with regard to the Lynx—and was said in the Report, and
some of the things that were said in the Report amazed me—that
we only had 24 fitted for war fighting although we have 110 Lynx.
You mean only 24 were fitted for war fighting in that particular
condition?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: In terms of
the condition we regarded as the right one for Iraq. We got 77
helicopters into Operation TELIC. Clearly the military authorities
have to make their own judgments about which balance of aircraft
they wanted to get there in time for that operation.
Q137 Mr Jenkins: We have 110 Lynx in
operation, have we not?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: Not fully in
operation but nearly 100, I suspect, fully operational. Perhaps
the Air Marshal can assist?
Q138 Mr Jenkins: I was just thinking
that if we have 24 in war fighting conditions, what has happened
to the other 86?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: I think it was
for that particular operation, Mr Jenkins, in terms of sand filters
and the rest of it.
Air Vice Marshal Luker: Could
I address that because I think there is some confusion here? We
could field 24 that would fit in every respect for war fighting
at the high end of the spectrum, fit for a coalition. The rest
of our aircraft do undertake operations but they do it in a range
of different environmental conditions and threat conditions, and
they are fit for that purpose.
Q139 Mr Jenkins: That is what I was trying
to get out of this Report. It sounded that we only had 24 fit
for war fighting when in effect we have many more fit for war
fighting in different conditions?
Sir Kevin Tebbit: For this particular
operation.
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