Examination of Witnesses (Questions 160
- 179)
MONDAY 15 NOVEMBER 2004
Department for Work and Pensions and Department for
Education and Skills
Q160 Mr Williams: We are told that—this
may be an unfortunate use of language in the briefing we have
got—there is the prospect of the introduction of age discrimination
legislation in 2006. Does that mean the introduction of legislation
in 2006 or legislation to implement the policy in 2006?
Sir Richard Mottram: That means
legislation implementing the policy, so the policy can be implemented
by October 2006. That is the policy in the European Directive.
Q161 Mr Williams: That remains unchanged,
does it?
Sir Richard Mottram: It does.
Q162 Mr Williams: In paragraph 2.46,
and this could be a favourable change, it says: "Ministers
are considering a revised timetable".
Sir Richard Mottram: Which paragraph
is that?
Q163 Mr Williams: Paragraph 2.46
on page 42.
Sir Richard Mottram: Essentially
what has happened, as that paragraph brings out, is that the draft
regulations to implement this policy were due to be published
in spring 2004 but they have not been published because there
are still discussions going on inside Government about certain
aspects of the implementation. What the end of this paragraph
says is that, therefore, we are looking at a revised timetable
for the handling of the process of consultation with industry
prior to these changes being introduced in October 2006. It is
not that the October 2006 date is shifting.
Q164 Mr Williams: One final question,
because it is slightly confusing. Also we are told that the Government
has proposed a range of measures to promote flexible retirement
and extended working life. These will be introduced between 2005
and 2010.
Sir Richard Mottram: Yes.
Q165 Mr Williams: What is the difference
between the two groups?
Sir Richard Mottram: What we are
talking about in the case of the October 2006 implementation is
implementing the European Directive which essentially outlaws
discrimination by age which cannot be objectively justified. Alongside
that, the Government has a whole series of policies which are
designed to introduce more flexibility, for example, in the way
in which you can defer taking your state pension or changes in
the earliest date at which you can take your occupational pension,
or shifting the retirement age for public sector workers. Each
of those has a different implementation date because in some cases
you have to give considerable notice about these things. In other
words, there is the EU legislation and then there is a raft of
policies which complement the thrust of ending age discrimination.
Does that make sense?
Mr Williams: I am sure we are all much
clearer as a result of your explanation. Thank you.
Q166 Mr Bacon: Sir Richard, in answer
to one of those questions from Mr Williams you said there are
discussions inside the Government about aspects of the implementation
and this has caused the delay. In paragraph 2.46 it refers to
the fact that there are ". . . divergent views on whether
a mandatory retirement age should be allowed . . ." Presumably
that is not the only issue. Without saying who does what, as it
were, can you very quickly sketch out what are the main heads
of disagreement, if you like, about where things might go as a
result of this delay?
Sir Richard Mottram: The main
disagreement is whether it would be appropriate to have effectively
a default retirement age which might be 65, for example.
Q167 Mr Bacon: Or just scrap it entirely?
Sir Richard Mottram: Or have no
retirement age, in which case you would have to justify in relation
to each employee why they were asked to leave because obviously
we all do have to leave eventually.
Q168 Mr Bacon: Even mandarins.
Sir Richard Mottram: I am afraid
mandarins go very early, but yes.
Q169 Mr Bacon: To a fairly comfortable
future.
Sir Richard Mottram: I hope so.
Q170 Mr Bacon: Could I ask about
the New Deal 50 Plus.
Sir Richard Mottram: Yes.
Q171 Mr Bacon: In answer to one of
the Chairman's first questions at the beginning you said that
there is a natural trade-off, which obviously there is. Do you
agree that there is less likely to be that trade-off between,
if you like, the deadweight cost of people who would go and get
jobs anyway for the over 50 group than would be the case for the
younger group in the Plus 25 area?
Sir Richard Mottram: Yes.
Q172 Mr Bacon: That is why it is
six months rather than 12 months?
Sir Richard Mottram: Rather than
18 months.
Q173 Mr Bacon: You are spending £270
million on it now—
Sir Richard Mottram: We have spent
£270 million.
Q174 Mr Bacon: Have you calculated
the additional cost of making it available instantly rather than
having a six month wait?
Sir Richard Mottram: I do not
think we would make it available instantly but certainly we could
look at variations. One of the things we will be doing in relation
to Building on New Deal (BoND) is thinking about should we have
flexibility for individuals so if there was a compelling case
for helping someone at three months, two months or whatever, could
we do that? We are strongly in favour of that flexibility. Obviously
there are resource issues around the cost of all of that which
we also have to have in mind, but that is the essential thrust
of BoND.
Mr Anderson: If I may add to that,
Mr Bacon. There are some early entry criteria that personal advisers
can use for all the New Deal programmes. People who have come
out of prison or out of care homes or whatever can enter the programmes
before the normal month's unemployment.
Q175 Mr Bacon: You have 10,000 personal
advisers out of a headcount of roughly 130,000 or so.
Sir Richard Mottram: Roughly,
yes.
Q176 Mr Bacon: That makes you the
biggest employer Department.
Sir Richard Mottram: The biggest
Government Department, yes.
Q177 Mr Bacon: Employer of civil
servants.
Sir Richard Mottram: Yes. That
makes us roughly a quarter of the total number of civil servants.
Q178 Mr Bacon: A quarter of all civil
servants.
Sir Richard Mottram: Yes.
Q179 Mr Bacon: Can you tell us what
they are all doing?
Sir Richard Mottram: What are
all my people doing?
Mr Bacon: What do these 130,000 people
do?
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