Examination of Witnesses (Questions 180
- 199)
MONDAY 15 NOVEMBER 2004
Department for Work and Pensions and Department for
Education and Skills
Q180 Chairman: Do not take too long
about it.
Sir Richard Mottram: Do we know
what they all do? Yes, we know exactly what they all do.
Q181 Mr Bacon: Could you send us
a note which breaks down what they do by conventional organisational
headings, like finance, HR, administration, back office, IT, as
well as the personal advisers. Also, if you could provide it by
geography so we can get some understanding of who these people
are, what they are doing and where they are coming from.
Sir Richard Mottram: We have that
data, yes.[1]
Q182 Mr Bacon: I would be grateful
if you could. Following up what Mr Allan said earlier, when you
have got to your new world, your post-Gershon world, and you cut
these 30,000 positions, your significantly smaller service in
terms of the Jobcentre Plus will have how many personal advisers?
Sir Richard Mottram: That is the
issue that we are still trying to tease out. I cannot give you
a definite figure.
Q183 Mr Bacon: Roughly? 5,000 or
7,000? What number are we talking about?
Sir Richard Mottram: If I am doing
it roughly I am going to be giving you a figure, am I not?
Q184 Chairman: We have asked this
question four times now, he is not going to give us an answer.
Sir Richard Mottram: I am not
going to give an answer, Chairman, because we are working on the
detailed implementation plans and obviously we have to agree those
with ministers. I am not really in a position to share them with
the Committee until I have agreed them with my ministers. When
I have agreed them with my ministers I would be happy to share
them. They may still be confidential but obviously we could share
them with the Committee.
Q185 Mr Bacon: Your supposition is
it is going to be smaller than 10,000?
Sir Richard Mottram: No, my supposition
is it will be probably around 10,000.
Q186 Chairman: I think you have just
given an answer.
Sir Richard Mottram: I have a
record of what "around" might mean. The other issue
that we should have brought out earlier probably is one of the
areas we are looking at is—this is a Gershon point more
generally—can we look at the way in which our personal advisers
spend their time and whether some of their time is spent on unproductive
tasks or some of their time is spent on administrative tasks that
other people could do so we could, I was going to say get more
bang for our buck, but you know what I mean, we could improve
the productive time of whatever number we had. That is something
that David is working on at the moment.
Q187 Mr Bacon: Okay. If I could ask
you about Incapacity Benefit, you said in answer to an earlier
question that basically there has been a tighter approach to the
gateway since 1995.
Sir Richard Mottram: Yes.
Q188 Mr Bacon: Obviously there was
a looser approach to the gateway before 1995.
Sir Richard Mottram: Yes.
Q189 Mr Bacon: A whole load of people
who make up this much larger number, and on page 23 it is 49%,
are there as a result of this looser gateway, 1.3 million people
over 50 are on Incapacity Benefit.
Sir Richard Mottram: A lot of
people would have flowed on since 1995. It is quite a complicated
calculation.
Q190 Mr Bacon: That is true but,
nonetheless, the number has remained more or less static at this
much larger number. On page 20 in paragraph 1.6, it is pointed
out that ". . . the number of older people claiming Incapacity
Benefits has grown even though the general health of the nation
has improved." Notwithstanding what Mr Allan said about the
industrial areas, and one can see that, that is what makes it
difficult for people to credit what is going on here, that we
have a healthier nation and yet the take-up of Incapacity Benefits
has quadrupled. Why?
Sir Richard Mottram: The take-up
of Incapacity Benefit quadrupled, roughly speaking, between around
1979 and now, but if you look at the data in here about the flow
and the stock which you can see from the diagram on page 24, which
should have been referred to earlier, this brings out very clearly
what has been going on here. The annual inflows have fallen very
substantially since 1995. The stock has continued to rise, but
if you look at the profile of the stock, the trend line of the
stock, quite clearly it has flattened out. We are interested in
two things: maintaining tight controls on the inflows, and we
hope that could be reduced somewhat further; and helping them
to reduce the stock, but reducing the stock is a long-term job,
we are talking about many years to really get a grip on that bigger
number for all sorts of reasons that we have discussed. If you
look at that table, what it shows is that this is a problem which
is not growing any more, so a lot of the debate about it in public
is based upon a misunderstanding, I think, that is not informed
by this diagram. The growth in Incapacity Benefit was fundamentally
a growth from 1979 to around 1995.
Q191 Mr Bacon: The interesting point
is of those 1.3 million people, although there is no obligation
for them actively to seek work, how many are capable of doing
work? That is the interesting question.
Sir Richard Mottram: It is indeed.
Q192 Mr Bacon: And what is the answer?
Sir Richard Mottram: The answer
is we believe that with help a substantial number of them could
work again.
Q193 Chairman: But they are all,
by definition, incapacitated.
Sir Richard Mottram: They are,
but even the title of the benefit is unfortunate, I think, Chairman.
Q194 Mr Bacon: I think you should
change the title.
Sir Richard Mottram: I would like
to change the title.
Q195 Mr Bacon: Can I ask you about
how you assess Incapacity Benefit. You are still employing Schlumberger
to do that, are you?
Sir Richard Mottram: They have
a new name, Atos Origin. Same company, different name.
Q196 Mr Bacon: Enhanced service,
new name.
Sir Richard Mottram: It is part
of a different group now.
Q197 Mr Bacon: They have changed
hands quite a few times. How much are you paying them?
Sir Richard Mottram: I do not
have that number with me but I could give it to you.
Q198 Mr Bacon: If you could send
us how much you pay to them.
Mr Anderson: It is in the region
of 75 million a year.
Q199 Mr Bacon: The chief executive
of the old Schlumberger told us 80. How much is for what? How
much is to assess Disability Living Allowance? If you could do
something, that would be terrific.
Sir Richard Mottram: Yes.[2]
Mr Bacon: Thank you, Chairman.
1 Ev 19 Back
2
Ev 25 Back
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