Examination of Witnesses (Questions 180-181)
DEPARTMENT OF
HEALTH
8 SEPTEMBER 2004
Q180 Mr Allan: What is nice on this Committee
is to see that people have learnt from mistakes and made improvements.
When we are building new hospitals, we are not just building new
buildings but we have new cleaning contracts, and it is a greenfield
opportunity. One would hope that they would be better than the
old ones. Can you produce data on the new hospitals versus the
old ones to see if this investment of public money is making any
difference to the public concern? [11]Most
of them will be PFI, but it is not the PFI bit that I am interested
in; it is the fact that it is a new site with new management hopefully
and new procedures. Secondly, Sir Nigel, it is fair to say that
a lot of what you have said today is that in a sense the management
has been overstretched; you have been dealing with so many other
initiatives that this has not been a priority and that is why
you have not done as much over the last four years as you could
have done.
Sir Nigel Crisp: I think I said
that it has been a priority, but there have been other priorities
as well, and what managers have to do is to manage those priorities
together. If there were this one thing that we were singly focused
on, we would have moved further—I have no doubt about this.
We have actually moved forward on quite a broad range of things.
Q181 Mr Allan: In that context, what
one is concerned about with foundation hospitals is that they
will be another management distraction. It would be helpful, as
they progress, to be able to see the distinction between foundation
hospitals dealing with this issue, and other hospitals. They
have been sold to us, as it were, as improving
things across the board. The concern must be that for management
priorities, the fact that they are having to do everything new
and working with these new bodies may be a distraction rather
than an assistance.
Sir Nigel Crisp: Can I make one
point on that, which is a very important one? I believe that the
NHS is learning to be ever better at talking and listening to
its patients and treating people, and this is part of the choice
agenda, to start treating people as the owners of the system apart
from anything else—that they should be treated with respect
and not with arrogance.
Chairman: I think, Sir Nigel, you should
quit while you are ahead and end on that point because that is
a very good answer and nobody now will ask you any more questions.
I have a couple of points, which you can deal with in a note,
to save time. You referred to figure 8 and making this information
available to patients. Currently participation in surveillance
is voluntary. Are you now going to make it mandatory for all hospitals?
We would like to have a note on that. [12]I
understand from the Sun newspaper that there are no cases
of MRSA in Gt Ormond St Hospital, and it would be interesting
to know why that is. [13]Lastly,
and most importantly, we have focused heavily on MRSA today, but
why is so little information available on other infections? Perhaps
I could have a further note on that. [14]This
was brought up right at the end of the hearing by possibly the
most important question of the whole afternoon, which came from
my colleague Mr Williams, where apparently the figure that we
are now dealing with is not 300,000 but 600,000; and I think we
will have to return to this in our report because it is extremely
important, with the help of the National Audit Office. Perhaps
lastly, Sir Nigel, the very last word should go to Florence Nightingale,
who wrote in 1860: "It cannot be necessary to tell a nurse
that she should be clean or that she should keep her patient clean
seeing that the greater part of nursing consists in preserving
cleanliness." I am sure you would all agree with that. Thank
you very much.
11 Ev 37 Back
12
Ev 37 Back
13
Ev 38 Back
14
Ev 38 Back
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