Formal minutes
Thursday 10 February 2005
Members present:
Tony Wright, in the Chair
| Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
| Mr Gordon Prentice
Brian White
Iain Wright
|
The Committee deliberated.
Draft Report (Response to Government's Consultation on the Civil
Service Bill), proposed by the Chairman, brought up and read.
Ordered, That the Chairman's
draft Report be read a second time, paragraph by paragraph.
Paragraph 1 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 2, amendment proposed, in line 1, to leave
out the words "is highly unusual in" and to insert the
words "prides itself on"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Another amendment proposed in line 4, after "public service",
to insert the words "including some countries which have
outperformed the United Kingdom"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Another amendment proposed in line 5, to leave out the words "We
believe that this tradition, begun in the 1850s when William Gladstone
asked Northcote and Trevelyan to consider the future of the Civil
Service, leading to reforms which replaced patronage with merit,
is" and to insert the words "The Northcote/Trevelyan
reforms, implemented, as they were, between their 'excellent administration'
of the Irish famine of the 1840s and the equally 'successful'
Indian famine a decade later, are"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Paragraph 2 agreed to.
Paragraph 3, amendment proposed, in line 5, to leave
out the words "emerging consensus" and to insert the
words "disparate views"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Paragraph 3 agreed to.
Paragraph 4 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 5, amendment proposed, in line 1, to leave
out the words "seems to doubt the" and to insert the
words "also recognises that there is some doubt about"—(Brian
White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Paragraph 5 agreed to.
Paragraph 6, amendment proposed, in line 6, to leave
out the words "It is unusual, even bizarre, for a government
to publish" and insert the words "We welcome that the
Government has published"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Another amendment proposed, in line 7, to leave out
the words "seeming to suggest" and insert the words
"recognising"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Another amendment proposed, in line 7, to leave out
the word "is" and to insert the words "may be"—(Brian
White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Another amendment proposed, in line 7, at the end,
to insert the words "and requires considerable public debate"—(Brian
White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Paragraph 6 agreed to.
Paragraph 7, amendment proposed, in line 1, to leave
out the word "indeed" and to insert the word "not"—(Brian
White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Another amendment proposed, in line 2, after the
word "consensus", to insert the words "despite
attempts to do so"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Another amendment proposed, in line 2, to leave out
the words "This sees" and to insert the words "Many
argue"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Another amendment proposed, in line 12, to leave
out from the word "According" to the end of the paragraph—(Brian
White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Paragraph 7 agreed to.
Paragraph 8, amendment proposed, in line 9, at the
end, to insert the words "However, some would argue this
is because senior civil servants are now being expected to deliver
outcomes rather than endless policy options"—(Brian
White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Paragraph 8 agreed to.
Paragraph 9, amendment proposed, in line 1, to leave
out the words "be agreed on" and to insert the word
"accept"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Paragraph 9 agreed to.
Paragraph 10, amendment proposed, in line 1, to leave
out the word "legislation" and to insert the words "this
debate"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Another amendment proposed, in line 3, to leave out
the words "neutrality of the Civil Service" and to insert
the words "need for Civil Service to be partial to the Government
of the day irrespective of who that is"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Paragraph 10 agreed to.
Paragraphs 11 and 12 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 13, amendment proposed, in line 3, after
the words "of merit in", to insert the word "senior"—(Brian
White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Paragraph 13 agreed to.
Paragraph 14 read, as follows:
"We note that here the Government makes the
essential case for statutory means to uphold the Commission's
independence, which 'must be beyond dispute across the political
spectrum'. The logic of this passage—and it is one with
which we, and most of the political parties, agree—is that
only statutory provision will suffice to ensure that all parties
will maintain the consensus".
Motion made, and Question put, to leave out paragraph
14—(Brian White).
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Paragraph 14 agreed to.
Paragraph 15 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 16, amendment proposed, in line 1, at the
beginning, to insert the words "This would go too far the
other way and"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Paragraph 16 agreed to.
Paragraph 17, amendment proposed, in line 1, after
the words "the Government", to insert the word "rightly"—(Brian
White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Paragraph 17 agreed to.
Paragraph 18, amendment proposed, to leave out the
words "Yet this apprehension is shown to be unfounded by
the appearance of the Government's own draft Bill"—(Brian
White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Another amendment proposed, in line 8, at the end,
to insert the words "However, we recognise that this aspect
requires proper debate"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Paragraph 18 agreed to.
Paragraph 19 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 20, amendment proposed, in line 8, at the
end, to insert the words "but recognise that until there
is a proper definition of a civil servant as distinct from a public
servant there is likely to be doubt in the minds of some whether
this is workable"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Paragraph 20 agreed to.
Paragraph 21, amendment proposed, in line 5, to leave
out the words "We hope that a Civil Service Bill will be
enacted early in the next Parliament"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Paragraph 21 agreed to.
Paragraph 22, amendment proposed, in line 1, after
the words "There is", to leave out the word "wide"—(Brian
White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Another amendment proposed, in line 2, to leave out
the words "is now no reason why there should be delay in
converting draft into actual Bill" and to insert the words
"are still good reasons for progressing slowly. When changing
the vital part of our constitution it is important that the changes
command wide cross-party support and retain the confidence of
the whole of the civil service, not just the senior civil servants
around Whitehall"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Another amendment proposed, in line 3, after the
word "Committee", to leave out the word "demonstrated"—(Brian
White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Another amendment proposed, in line 3, after the
words "own draft Bill", to insert the word "suggested"—(Brian
White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Another amendment proposed, in line 8, after the
words "to come in", to leave out the words "the
first session of"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Brian White
| | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright
|
Paragraph 22 agreed to.
Resolved, That the Report
be the Third Report of the Committee to the House.
Ordered, That the Chairman
do make the Report to the House.
Ordered, That the provisions
of Standing Order No. 134 (Select committees (reports)) be applied
to the Report.
[Adjourned till Thursday 24 February at 9.30am
|
