Examination of Witnesses (Questions 160
- 163)
THURSDAY 25 NOVEMBER 2004
DR TIM
BROWN, MR
ALAN WALTER
AND MR
CHRIS WOOD
Q160 Mr Prentice: Based in Harborough!
Dr Brown: They are already running
those in the Netherlands. They have eight regional systems. They
started off with one in each municipality. They are learning the
lessons from that, and actually you are seeing it in the types
of services being run by Dutch housing associations and municipalities,
through the efficiency savings.
Q161 Mr Prentice: Are there any properties
in Newham that you just cannot shift?
Mr Wood: No.
Q162 Chairman: This has been a fascinating
session because it has tested both choice and voice—an example
of choice being commended and an example of choice being commended
and problems being identified with an example of voice. Do you
think that out of this discussion there are any wider lessons
or extensions of some of the things we have been talking about
into other public service areas? What have we learnt from any
of this about how we might extend choice in particular ways across
the board; or whether there are issues about the voice that come
out of this too? I know it is a large question to ask at the end,
but very quickly.
Dr Brown: I think it is really
important that the links are made, only around choice-based lettings,
with some of the choices that are happening, and I know you will
be discussing very shortly, in the health service, things like
tele-care services, and how very vulnerable people can access
information in the home. What we do need to do with choice-based
letting is get out of the silo, just saying it is choice-based
lettings and housing, and actually widen it to the links with
health and social care debates. People out there do not see it
as just choice in lettings; once you start giving people choice,
they want choice in lots of things, and they start asking questions—and
why shouldn't they?
Q163 Mr Prentice: I would like a
bigger car!
Mr Wood: There are three points
for me. One of the lessons I am taking away from choice-based
lettings is around e-government and the opportunities to automate
many of the services, around people's ability to access schemes,
and the ease with which they can do that. There is huge potential
there, and we are starting to replicate it in other areas. The
second one is that I am very positive about choice-based lettings,
but I still think there is a long way to go. People do not have
the choice to move from one part of London to another, and we
need to create that choice. They have very limited choice to move
from one part of the country to another, and we need to extend
and break down some of those barriers. Choice-based mobility is
the next phase. The final perhaps more philosophical point for
me is that another lesson from the choice-based lettings experience
is that creating these kinds of choices and handing over some
of the control and the power to the consumer has reduced dependency.
Some of the existing systems encourage a dependency. Previously,
people accessed housing by demonstrating the extent of their misery
and emphasising their disadvantage; and I think this turns that
around and gives people more dignity but less dependency on the
housing professional.
Mr Walter: I disagree with Gordon—I
do not want a bigger car, but I would not mind a holiday in the
Caribbean! There are some issues, to go back to what Chris said
earlier, where you have to make choices; but I do not think the
analogy that maybe the Government should put money into hospitals
or schools rather than housing is relevant to what we are talking
about here in terms of housing. The Public Accounts Committee
and the National Audit Office found that stock transfer was more
expensive, and our argument is that if you ring-fence the money
for housing, then you could keep council houses, rather than have
privatisation. The concrete debate we have had about stock options
is not a debate about where Government should put big chunks of
money; it is about the politics behind its policies. I suppose
that comes under the second point. I am involved in my local community
in the London Borough of Camden in all sorts of capacities, and
my experience as a local community representative is that we get
lots of things dressed up as choice, and endless consultations,
and usually that is just a fig leaf for the council or any number
of other agencies trying to drive a particular policy. Actually,
there is very little choice and very little community involvement.
The voice of the professionals is getting bigger and bigger, and
the resources they put behind driving something. In the past you
might have had the local council propose something, and you might
have had the ward councillor, or even the leader of the council,
coming to a public meeting and having to argue their case; and
equally other people, and on a much more equal footing, would
have been able to stand up at a public meeting and argue an alternative
case. Now, they avoid public meetings like the plague, and instead
you have lots of money being spent pushing a particular argument.
Unless you are incredibly well organised and have lots of resources,
then in real practical human terms there is no way of countering
it. Another interesting bit of research was that despite all the
consultations that get carried out, at the end of them the view
of the authority conducting that consultation often does get through.
It seems to me that in most cases the original document and the
final document are very much the same. I think it is a game, which
is an abuse of people. It has nothing to do with choice and does
not give people a voice.
Chairman: That is very good. One of the
issues that comes out of the session, which we are all agreed
on, is that if we have choice it has to be real. It does not have
to be just a game that we play. That is something that the Committee
is well aware of. We have had a very interesting session indeed.
As someone who grew up just near Market Harborough, I never thought
that it would be the centre of the universe for anything! I am
delighted to know that it now is. The fact that we have had such
an interesting and in some senses robust exchange of views has
helped the Committee greatly. We are grateful to you all for coming
along and giving us your time this morning. Thank you very much
indeed.
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