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Thursday 25 November 2004
Members present:
Tony Wright, in the Chair
Mrs Anne Campbell
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
| | Mr Gordon Prentice
Brian White |
The Committee deliberated.
Choice, Voice and Public Services: Dr Tim Brown, Centre for Comparative Housing Research, De Montfort University, Alan Walter, Defend Council Housing, and Chris Wood, Director, Housing and Customer Services Department, Newham Borough Council, were examined.
Niall Dickson, Chief Executive and John Appleby, Chief Economist, Health Policy, Kings Fund, James Johnson, Chair of Council, British Medical Association, and Professor Allyson Pollock, Health Policy Unit, University College London, were examined.
[Adjourned till Thursday 2 December at 9.30 a.m.
Thursday 2 December 2004
Members present:
Tony Wright, in the Chair
Mrs Annette Brooke
Mrs Anne Campbell
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
| | Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Brian White |
The Committee deliberated.
The Work of the Ombudsman: Ann Abraham, Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration and Health Service Ombudsman, Trish Longdon, Deputy Ombudsman, and Bill Richardson, Deputy Chief Executive, Office of the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman, were examined.
[Adjourned till Thursday 9 December at 9.30 a.m.
Thursday 9 December 2004
Members present:
Tony Wright, in the Chair
Mrs Anne Campbell
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
| | Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Brian White |
The Committee deliberated.
Resolved, That the Committee do take evidence from the Rt Hon Lord Woolf, Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales.—(The Chairman.)
Government By Inquiry: Sir Michael Bichard KCB, Sir Louis Blom-Cooper QC, and Sir Ian Kennedy, were examined.
The Rt Hon the Lord Morris of Manchester AO QSO, was examined.
[Adjourned till Thursday 14 December at 9.30 a.m.
Thursday 14 December 2004
Members present:
Tony Wright, in the Chair
Mrs Annette Brooke
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
| | Mr Gordon Prentice
Brian White |
The Committee deliberated.
Government By Inquiry: The Rt Hon Lord Woolf, Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales, was examined.
[Adjourned till Thursday 9 December at 9.30 a.m.
Thursday 16 December 2004
Members present:
Tony Wright, in the Chair
Mrs Anne Campbell
Mr David Heyes | | Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger |
The Committee deliberated.
[Adjourned till Wednesday 12 January at 9.30 a.m.
Wednesday 12 January 2005
Members present:
Tony Wright, in the Chair
Annette Brooke
Mrs Anne Campbell
Mr David Heyes
| | Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice |
The Committee deliberated.
Government by Inquiry: Sir Alan Budd, was examined.
Sir John Gieve KCB, Permanent Secretary, Home Office, was examined.
[Adjourned till Thursday 13 January at 9.30 a.m.
Thursday 13 January 2005
Members present:
Tony Wright, in the Chair
Annette Brooke
Mrs Anne Campbell | | Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Gordon Prentice |
The Committee deliberated.
Choice, Voice and Public Services: Professor Harry Brighouse, University of Wisconsin, Dr Philip Hunter CBE, Chief Schools Adjudicator and Martin Ward, Deputy General Secretary, Secondary Heads Association, were examined.
[Adjourned till Tuesday 18 January at 2.00 p.m. at Birmingham City Council Offices.
The Committee met at Birmingham City Council Offices
Tuesday 18 January 2005
Members present:
Tony Wright, in the Chair
Mrs Anne Campbell
Mr David Heyes | | Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Gordon Prentice |
The Committee deliberated.
Choice, Voice and Public Services: Vic Smith, Tenant Representative, Caroline Palmer-Fagan and Ravinder Johal, Housing Officers and Helen Marson, Head of Procurement for Housing, Birmingham City Council, were examined.
Tim Boyes, Headteacher, Queensbridge School, Tony Howell, Strategic Director and Chris Palmer, Senior Policy Officer, Learning and Culture, Birmingham City Council, were examined.
Graham Urwin, Chief Executive, Chris Fearns, Director of Modernisation and Primary Care, Doreen Harrison, Director Nursing, Therapies and Elderly Services, South Birmingham Primary Care Trust and Peter Hay, Strategic Director, Social Care and Health Directorate, Birmingham City Council, were examined.
[Adjourned till Thursday 20 January at 2.00 pm
Thursday 20 January 2005
Members present:
Tony Wright, in the Chair
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins | | Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice |
The Committee deliberated.
Choice, Voice and Public Services: The Rt Hon John Hutton, a Member of the House, Minister of State and John Bacon, Group Director of Health and Social Care Services Delivery, Department of Health, were examined.
[Adjourned till Wednesday 26 January at 10.30 a.m.
Wednesday 26 January 2005
Members present:
Tony Wright, in the Chair
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins | | Iain Wright |
The Committee deliberated.
[Adjourned till Thursday 27 January at 2.15 pm
Thursday 27 January 2005
Members present:
Tony Wright, in the Chair
Anne Campbell
Mr David Heyes | | Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Gordon Prentice |
The Committee deliberated.
Choice, Voice and Public Services: Stephen Twigg, a Member of the House, Minister of State, Department for Education and Skills and the Rt Hon Nick Raynsford, a Member of the House, Minister of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, were examined.
The Committee further deliberated.
Draft Report (Government by Inquiry), proposed by the Chairman, brought up and read.
(The Minutes of Proceedings relating to the consideration of the Report are published in the First Report of the Committee, HC 51-I, p.99).
[Adjourned till Thursday 3 February at 9.30 a.m.
Thursday 3 February 2005
Members present:
Tony Wright, in the Chair
Anne Campbell
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger | | Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
The Committee deliberated.
Draft Report (Work of the Committee in 2004), proposed by the Chairman, brought up and read.
(The Minutes of Proceedings relating to the consideration of the Report are published in the Second Report of the Committee, HC 306, p.10).
Civil Service Effectiveness: Sir Peter Gershon CBE, was examined.
[Adjourned till Thursday 10 February at 10.00 a.m.
Thursday 10 February 2005
Members present:
Tony Wright, in the Chair
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger | | Mr Gordon Prentice
Brian White
Iain Wright |
The Committee deliberated.
Draft Report (Response to Government's Consultation on the Civil Service Bill), proposed by the Chairman, brought up and read.
Ordered, That the Chairman's draft Report be read a second time, paragraph by paragraph.
Paragraph 1 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 2, amendment proposed, in line 1, to leave out the words "is highly unusual in" and to insert the words "prides itself on"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Another amendment proposed in line 4, after "public service", to insert the words "including some countries which have outperformed the United Kingdom"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Another amendment proposed in line 5, to leave out the words "We believe that this tradition, begun in the 1850s when William Gladstone asked Northcote and Trevelyan to consider the future of the Civil Service, leading to reforms which replaced patronage with merit, is" and to insert the words "The Northcote/Trevelyan reforms, implemented, as they were, between their 'excellent administration' of the Irish famine of the 1840s and the equally 'successful' Indian famine a decade later, are"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Paragraph 2 agreed to.
Paragraph 3, amendment proposed, in line 5, to leave out the words "emerging consensus" and to insert the words "disparate views"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Paragraph 3 agreed to.
Paragraph 4 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 5, amendment proposed, in line 1, to leave out the words "seems to doubt the" and to insert the words "also recognises that there is some doubt about"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Paragraph 5 agreed to.
Paragraph 6, amendment proposed, in line 6, to leave out the words "It is unusual, even bizarre, for a government to publish" and insert the words "We welcome that the Government has published"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Another amendment proposed, in line 7, to leave out the words "seeming to suggest" and insert the words "recognising"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Another amendment proposed, in line 7, to leave out the word "is" and to insert the words "may be"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Another amendment proposed, in line 7, at the end, to insert the words "and requires considerable public debate"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Paragraph 6 agreed to.
Paragraph 7, amendment proposed, in line 1, to leave out the word "indeed" and to insert the word "not"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Another amendment proposed, in line 2, after the word "consensus", to insert the words "despite attempts to do so"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Another amendment proposed, in line 2, to leave out the words "This sees" and to insert the words "Many argue"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Another amendment proposed, in line 12, to leave out from the word "According" to the end of the paragraph—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Paragraph 7 agreed to.
Paragraph 8, amendment proposed, in line 9, at the end, to insert the words "However, some would argue this is because senior civil servants are now being expected to deliver outcomes rather than endless policy options"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Paragraph 8 agreed to.
Paragraph 9, amendment proposed, in line 1, to leave out the words "be agreed on" and to insert the word "accept"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Paragraph 9 agreed to.
Paragraph 10, amendment proposed, in line 1, to leave out the word "legislation" and to insert the words "this debate"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Another amendment proposed, in line 3, to leave out the words "neutrality of the Civil Service" and to insert the words "need for Civil Service to be partial to the Government of the day irrespective of who that is"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Paragraph 10 agreed to.
Paragraphs 11 and 12 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 13, amendment proposed, in line 3, after the words "of merit in", to insert the word "senior"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Paragraph 13 agreed to.
Paragraph 14 read, as follows:
"We note that here the Government makes the essential case for statutory means to uphold the Commission's independence, which 'must be beyond dispute across the political spectrum'. The logic of this passage—and it is one with which we, and most of the political parties, agree—is that only statutory provision will suffice to ensure that all parties will maintain the consensus".
Motion made, and Question put, to leave out paragraph 14—(Brian White).
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Paragraph 14 agreed to.
Paragraph 15 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 16, amendment proposed, in line 1, at the beginning, to insert the words "This would go too far the other way and"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Paragraph 16 agreed to.
Paragraph 17, amendment proposed, in line 1, after the words "the Government", to insert the word "rightly"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Paragraph 17 agreed to.
Paragraph 18, amendment proposed, to leave out the words "Yet this apprehension is shown to be unfounded by the appearance of the Government's own draft Bill"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Another amendment proposed, in line 8, at the end, to insert the words "However, we recognise that this aspect requires proper debate"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Paragraph 18 agreed to.
Paragraph 19 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 20, amendment proposed, in line 8, at the end, to insert the words "but recognise that until there is a proper definition of a civil servant as distinct from a public servant there is likely to be doubt in the minds of some whether this is workable"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Paragraph 20 agreed to.
Paragraph 21, amendment proposed, in line 5, to leave out the words "We hope that a Civil Service Bill will be enacted early in the next Parliament"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Paragraph 21 agreed to.
Paragraph 22, amendment proposed, in line 1, after the words "There is", to leave out the word "wide"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Another amendment proposed, in line 2, to leave out the words "is now no reason why there should be delay in converting draft into actual Bill" and to insert the words "are still good reasons for progressing slowly. When changing the vital part of our constitution it is important that the changes command wide cross-party support and retain the confidence of the whole of the civil service, not just the senior civil servants around Whitehall"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Another amendment proposed, in line 3, after the word "Committee", to leave out the word "demonstrated"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Another amendment proposed, in line 3, after the words "own draft Bill", to insert the word "suggested"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Another amendment proposed, in line 8, after the words "to come in", to leave out the words "the first session of"—(Brian White).
Question put, that the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 1
Brian White | | Noes, 5
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
Iain Wright |
Paragraph 22 agreed to.
Resolved, That the Report be the Third Report of the Committee to the House.
Ordered, That the Chairman do make the Report to the House.
(The Minutes of Proceedings relating to the consideration of the Report are published in the Third Report of the Committee, HC 336, p.12).
[Adjourned till Thursday 24 February at 9.30 a.m.
Thursday 24 February 2005
Members present:
Tony Wright, in the Chair
Mrs Anne Campbell
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
| | Mr Gordon Prentice
Brian White
Iain Wright |
The Committee deliberated.
Civil Service Effectiveness: Jonathan Baume, General Secretary of the FDA, Charles Cochrane OBE, Secretary of the Council of Civil Service Unions, Paul Noon, General Secretary of Prospect and Mark Serwotka, General Secretary of the Public and Commercial Services Union, were examined.
[Adjourned till Thursday 3 March at 2.15 p.m.
Thursday 3 March 2005
Members present:
Tony Wright, in the Chair
Mrs Anne Campbell
Mr David Heyes
| | Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger
Mr Gordon Prentice
|
The Committee deliberated.
Civil Service Effectiveness: Professor Christopher Hood, Gladstone Professor of Government and Fellow of All Souls College, Oxford University, Dr Martin Lodge, Department of Government and ESRC Centre for the Analysis of Risk and Regulation, LSE and Professor Colin Talbot, Professor of Public Policy, Nottingham University were examined.
[Adjourned till Thursday 10 March at 2.15 p.m.
Thursday 10 March 2005
Members present:
Tony Wright, in the Chair
Mr David Heyes
Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger | | Mr Gordon Prentice
Brian White
Iain Wright
|
The Committee deliberated.
Civil Service Effectiveness: Sir Andrew Turnbull KCB, CVO, Secretary of the Cabinet and Head of the Home Civil Service, was examined.
The Committee further deliberated.
Draft Report (Choice, Voice and Public Services), proposed by the Chairman, brought up and read.
(The Minutes of Proceedings relating to the consideration of the Report are published in the Fourth Report of the Committee, HC 49-I, p.70).
[Adjourned till Thursday 17 March at 10.00 a.m.
Thursday 17 March 2005
Members present:
Tony Wright, in the Chair
Mrs Anne Campbell
Mr David Heyes
| | Mr Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Gordon Prentice
|
The Committee deliberated.
Draft Report (Ministerial Accountability and Parliamentary Questions), proposed by the Chairman, brought up and read.
(The Minutes of Proceedings relating to the consideration of the Report are published in the Fifth Report of the Committee, HC 449-I, p.19).
[Adjourned to a day and time to be fixed by the Chairman.
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