Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80-99)
2 FEBRUARY 2005
PROFESSOR IAN
DIAMOND AND
MS HELEN
THORNE
Q80 Mr Key: So why does RCUK need to
be involved at all because what you have described is a direct
relationship between an individual Research Council and an individual
RDA?
Professor Diamond: Let us remember,
RCUK is a relatively smooth coordinating organisation and what
RCUK is doing is providing the essential glue that enables that
interaction to take place, and over time will, I believe, give
a focal point for RDAs to come in, and I think they are knowing
that increasingly over time.
Q81 Dr Iddon: One role that the Committee
would probably welcome that RCUK can achieve is administrative
convergence. There are of course millions of pounds worth of savings
in this, and I just refer to something mentioned earlier, the
Joint electronic-Submissions Programme. We understand that when
that is in place it could save £30 million, that single programme,
which is illustrative of the fact I have just stated. However,
when you look at the way that the Research Councils are behaving
it does not seem as dinky-dory as you led us to believe in your
earlier statement because four Research Councils had Je-S in place
by May 2003. I suppose the question is, why are the others dragging
their feet, particularly the MRC, who seem to have found their
own electronic-Submissions Programme and seem very reluctant to
come in with the Joint Submissions Programme.
Ms Thorne: The Research Councils
engage in the administration, harmonisation and convergent programme
on the basis of a consensus and that means that they participate
when there is real benefit to their users, academic community
and stakeholders for doing so. I do not see that any of the Research
Councils have particularly dragged their heels in joining the
Je-S project. MRC, as you pointed out, already had an electronic
system and they wanted to make sure that the Je-S project was
able to deliver the sort of things that they are already able
to deliver to their community electronically, and to make sure
that it is already doing all of that before they come on board.
So I think the timescale is perfectly reasonable on that basis.
Professor Diamond: And just to
make it very clear. You say four are a part of Je-S by 2004. Two
more, for example ESRC, already had an electronic system and so
the agreement was that Je-S would get up and running, the ESRC
would move in. So, that by the end of this summer we will have
six of the seven Councils running in the Je-S system. So it really
is a harmonised system.
Q82 Dr Iddon: Do you have a big stick?
Can you force the pace of administrative convergence including
Je-S, or any other that you are trying to achieve?
Professor Diamond: The Chief Executives
as a whole have that stick. It is up to the Chief Executives'
group to provide leadership and to say that this is going to happen.
That is what has happened on Je-S, it has happened on ISIT Convergence,
and we regularly review not only what we are doing but the speed
at which things are moving forward. I have to be absolutely honest,
that is one of the things that having the independent governance
of moving RCUK to us has really been able to get us because we
are there making decisions ourselves and taking it forward and
having to be seen externally to deliver against a set of objectives
and it is working very well.
Q83 Dr Iddon: We have a figure of £30
million for the savings on the Research Submission Convergence.
Is there a total figure for saving in administrative convergence
across the eight Research Councils?
Ms Thorne: I think it is useful
at this point to refer to our Gershon Efficiency Programme. The
Research Councils are required to make 2.5% year on year efficiency
gains, as other public bodies are. So what we do is we are doing
is wrapping up our savings on administration as part of our Gershon
delivery plan. What we actually have to do is we have a target
of saving £170 million across the whole of the Research Council
Science budget by 2007-08, and I can talk some more about that
if you like.
Q84 Dr Iddon: Is not the answer to have
one Research Council and is that not the fear of the eight Research
Councils at the moment, that you are moving along that pathway?
Professor Diamond: I do not get
up in the morning and march into Polaris House like a scared rabbit,
worrying if I will come out part of one Research Council. I walk
into Polaris House every morning believing that we have the optimal
strategy in the world for what we are trying to deliver. We are
not trying to do this in fear of becoming one Research Council;
we are trying to do it because, quite frankly, Brian, it is in
the best interests of UK science that all Research Councils collaborate
together. But it is also, I would submit, in the best interests
of UK science that we have individual Research Councils with real
strength in individual areas able properly to engage with their
communities and to speak for their communities, but part of that
a commitment to work together for the benefit of the UK.
Q85 Dr Iddon: Are you already seeing
in the work that you are doing, Ian, an increase in inter-disciplinary
research?
Professor Diamond: I am seeing
a commitment in universities to doing inter-disciplinary research
that I have not seen in my lifetime. I am also hearing from my
colleagues within Polaris House, who have been there for much
longer than I have personally, that people now think inter-disciplinary
in a way that they would not previously have done, and I could
give you two or three examples of areas or projects where people
are talking to each other and saying, "Look, this is a good
area, could we not get together across the Councils and see if
there is some activity here that is of benefit?" Just to
give you some examples, recently I have been in a number of universities—and
I can point to Newcastle, York and Sheffield as three—where
new buildings are going up which are there specifically to encourage
and to enable inter-disciplinary research of the sort that I believe—and
I am sure you believe, Brian—is critical if we are going
to take forward some of the science base. So the universities
are making a commitment and the Research Councils are doing everything
they can to support that.
Q86 Dr Iddon: I agree with that, but
there is great excitement about a £32 million building on
the former UMIST site. I have been to talk to people about that,
I think it is very welcome. Is this drive towards inter-disciplinary
research one of the real reasons that you have been put in place
and driving this agenda forward?
Professor Diamond: I think there
is a multitude of reasons. I think it is a good idea for the UK
to have a focal point on discussions, for example, with Europe
where, if you like, there is one Europe Research Council, a focal
point for those discussions and for people such as for business
and industry to have this one place initially to talk to. I think
it is a really good need for the inter-disciplinary research that
we have talked to, as well as understanding. And let us be clear,
much of the inter-disciplinary research requires new developments
in disciplinary research and that cross-Council activity enables
people to know what is going on, in basic chemistry, for example,
that may have a real impact on medicine, so that that is a really
important thing. Finally, as Helen has been pointing out, there
are very good reasons for administering of convergence where appropriate,
and that is why I think on all three of those levels the existence
of RCUK is an absolutely good thing.
Q87 Chairman: It seems to me from just
listening to your enthusiasm and so on for what is happening and
what you intend to do, you will need a lot more people to do it.
Would you agree with that, Helen?
Ms Thorne: I actually do not think
that the central team needs to be very large. I think the real
way that you get all of the sorts of exciting things that Ian
was talking about is by buy-in of the hearts and minds from everybody
who works in the Research Councils themselves, and that is really
what we are trying to do, and you do not need a central bureaucracy
to do that.
Q88 Chairman: Let us look at Europe because
Ian has mentioned that. For example, a way to make sure that you
keep within the budget is to top slice the budget over here and
put it into the research work by the Council, whatever is set
up in Europe. Is that a threat? You would not need new staff to
do that, it is just sending a cheque over the water or down the
Eurostar.
Professor Diamond: I think the
RCUK position on Europe is very simple. The European Research
Council is a good thing if it gives new money.
Q89 Chairman: Do you beg for that, borrow
or do you talk to Keith O'Nions and others about it?
Professor Diamond: We have been
part of a lobbying exercise and you will be aware that Chris Patten
has recently been asked to lead the development of that, and I
wrote to Chris Patten last week and suggested an early meeting
between him and a group of Research Council chief executives to
discuss the development of the European Research Council and we
will be lobbying along those lines.
Q90 Chairman: Who have you talked to
about this enterprise in Europe? Who have you tried to induce,
any other people who might be enthusiastic about it?
Professor Diamond: About the European—
Q91 Chairman: Not in Europe but in Britain—Ministers
for example.
Professor Diamond: Ian Halliday
and John O'Reilly lead for us on Europe and they have talked to
a large number of people, of course including David Sainsbury,
but throughout government and the RCUK input has, I know, been
received very seriously. Helen, do you want to say anything?
Ms Thorne: I do not think I need
to add anything.
Q92 Chairman: But you do support a European
Research Council?
Professor Diamond: We support
the development of a European Research Council, yes.
Q93 Chairman: How would you see them
allocating the money?
Professor Diamond: That is a very,
very, very good question and that is something that I think really
does need some—
Q94 Chairman: How would you like to see
it? Let us be adventurous. What would you say to your Research
Councils when they came in front of you? What would you put forward,
do you think?
Professor Diamond: To the European
Research Council? I think what you need, personally, is—I
am trying to think of a word that is not European super league—a
blue sky response mode competition for great science across Europe,
which can be from one laboratory or one team or can be cross-team.
I think there may be a case—and probably will be a case—for
a distinction between areas to ensure that it is possible (a)
to do a peer review in a coherent way, and (b) to make decisions.
Decisions in response mode are always difficult.
Q95 Chairman: Do you not think those
decisions would become political? The poor Greeks will get nothing
and the French will get everything and we will just get enough
to keep us moaning and groaning?
Professor Diamond: I think juste
retour is not a strategy that would be acceptable in a truly
European Research Council aimed at scientific excellence. If we
are interested in developing research in different areas of Europe
then we need to take that as a real necessity, and that is a different
question. My view of a European Research Council is that it should
be a competition for scientific excellence for the benefit of
European science.
Q96 Chairman: Is that something then
that you are going to drive or is the point of me saying do you
talk to Ministers—
Professor Diamond: That is the
RCUK position and that which Ian Halliday and John O'Reilly are
leading on.
Q97 Chairman: But does it get through
to the politicians, do you know?
Professor Diamond: I am conscious
that, as you know, Ian Halliday and John O'Reilly are extremely
good advocates and I am conscious that they have talked all the
way through.
Q98 Chairman: But Ian Halliday is going
shortly.
Professor Diamond: Ian Halliday
is going shortly and that is why we have a succession planning
and that is why John O'Reilly currently is jointly leading with
them.
Q99 Dr Turner: Let us go to the vexed
question of economic costs of research. Can you assure us that
implementation of full economic costs, or at least 80% of full
economic costs, will not adversely affect the volume of research?
Would it be at the expense of the number of projects that could
be funded by the Research Councils?
Professor Diamond: The government
has provided the money, new money to ensure that the current volume
can be maintained.
| 
