Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100-113)
2 FEBRUARY 2005
PROFESSOR IAN
DIAMOND AND
MS HELEN
THORNE
Q100 Dr Turner: Is it enough?
Professor Diamond: Yes.
Q101 Dr Turner: You are quite confident?
Professor Diamond: No problem.
Now, let me make it clear that there are some potential actions
in the research community which could impact on that and which
is part of the extremely positive dialogue that has been taking
place between the Research Councils and the Higher Education sector.
One, full economic costing, absolutely rightly, will include principal
investigators' time. The modelling that we have done thus far
has been dependent on principle investigators who currently put
in the amount of time they intend spending on a project, in future
putting in the same, broadly, amount of time. If suddenly everybody
who is saying, "I spent 40% of my time on this project,"
says "I spent 80% on it," then of course the costs of
current grants will increase and there is no increased money for
that volume. It is for the universities and the Research Councils
jointly to monitor that and we will be so doing. Secondly, if
we see an inflation in, if you like, the amount being done by
principal investigators instead of junior investigators then I
think it is right that we take a view because, again, the costs
will increase for the same amount of money, and that is over and
above the modelling that has been done to ensure the extra. So
there is, I am absolutely clear in my mind, a risk, but it is
a risk that we are going into entirely with open eyes, we have
been talking to the universities about it, and which we will be
monitoring and publishing statistics on over time.
Q102 Dr Turner: Do you think that granting
full economic costs or a percentage thereof will help institutions
in participating in European framework programmes where clearly
the European framework grants do not cover the full economic costs
either?
Professor Diamond: I think that
is a discussion that clearly needs to be had with those managing
the European grants, and I know it is a discussion—and which
Helen may wish to expand upon—which is being had to lobby
for European Research Council money to pay something like full
economic costs.
Q103 Dr Turner: Do you want to add to
that?
Ms Thorne: Only to say that, I
think as we said in our submission, what we are doing at the moment,
we are looking at what the impact is likely to be and the joint
project that we are running through our research office in Brussels
and in the Universities in the UK, working with a number of universities
in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, who are currently
leading or managing or coordinating framework programme activities
to try to see what the impact would be. The findings are due shortly
but the preliminary findings suggest that the move to full economic
cost in the UK will not have an adverse impact.
Q104 Dr Iddon: This is probably the last
line of questioning, Ian. What role will your organisation play
in the development of Large-Scale Facilities? After all, this
is such a strategic area covering more than one Research Council?
Professor Diamond: Critically
important, Brian; they are absolutely critically important. There
is a large-scale infrastructure roadmap which was put together
by the previous incarnation of the RCUK strategy group, which
was the result of extremely detailed and extremely, I felt, productive
discussions about where we had to prioritise and what we could
prioritise on because we could not do everything. And I know that
it is a priority going forward that we revise that roadmap and
that we look at the priorities for large-scale infrastructure
funding, and I know that Keith O'Nions has asked all Research
Councils to think about the infrastructure that will be required
going forward. It is absolutely critical because these are big
decisions that will require prioritisation across Research Councils;
it is entirely critical that RCUK plays a role in that and indeed
is able to make difficult decisions with OST that will be required
to be made.
Q105 Dr Iddon: Are you involved in the
ITER discussions, the fusion project?
Professor Diamond: We are involved
in all those discussions, yes.
Q106 Dr Iddon: Could I now finally turn
to the Large Facilities Fund? Are you also involved in individual
Research Councils making bids to the Large Facilities Fund? For
example, would you be expected to be involved in the MRC's decision
to give up the Mill Hill site and move into Central London?
Professor Diamond: You may recall
the letter I wrote to you on that subject on behalf of RCUK, and
that is that where individual Councils make proper decisions then
it is not for RCUK to second-guess those decisions; it is for
the individual Councils to make those decisions as best they see
fit.
Q107 Dr Iddon: But after the decision
to move into Central London they would have to bid to the Large
Facilities Fund to fund that move. Would you be involved in that?
Professor Diamond: Anything that
came to the Large Facilities roadmap and decisions thereby, RCUK
clearly has to be able to take a view of the priorities for the
scarce resource that exists, and that goes across Research Councils,
and that is what RCUK properly did in consultation, in a discussion
with the OST who make a final decision.
Q108 Chairman: I will finish with you
Ian, because I started the whole proceedings off. This for me
is like beating the English at Wembley, you have achieved something.
I feel that you are the last Research Council that we have scrutinised.
Gosh, it has been hard work but it has been really illuminating
and interesting. Does it make any difference to people like you
in your job that we do this kind of scrutiny? Does it help, does
it help formulate policy, even to the extent you say, "Rubbish!"
How do you look upon it? I know that we can be annoying and so
on; on the other hand, are some of our ideas positive and used
by the Research Councils, and in that in recognising your general
coordinating role there?
Professor Diamond: Let me be absolutely
frank. Your scrutiny, in my view, and our view, is an incredibly
important part of the public process. We believe that it is critical
that you do this, and I am going to give you my heartfelt thanks
for the incredibly positive and incredibly professional way that
you go about doing it. The work of your team, led by Chris, is
incredibly helpful to us. The brief that you get—and I have
said this to gazillions of people over the last two years since
the first time I met with you and I had my initial meeting—is,
I just think, second to none because you are really able to get
to the heart of the matter, and in so doing we take it very seriously—and
I think you have seen the effort that went into delivering not
only this scrutiny but for all the individual Research Councils—
Q109 Chairman: You did not get rehearsed
by some lobbying PR group, did you, like some other friends of
ours! You do not have to answer that question! You can tell me
later on!
Professor Diamond: I will also
tell you what the full economic cost is of preparing for a scrutiny.
I know this sounds terribly, terribly sycophantic but, at the
end of the day, yes, this is a really good exercise. I know all
the Research Councils look at the reports that come out and take
them incredibly seriously, but it is not just looking at the reports,
it is the preparation for them that enables you really properly
sometimes to just take a step backwards from what you are trying
to achieve and say, "Okay, what are we trying to achieve?"
And that can help you formulate policy. I am a huge believer in
what you are trying to achieve, but it only works—and here
comes the serious creep—if you are prepared to take it as
seriously as you do.
Q110 Chairman: You bet we do!
Professor Diamond: Then you get
the great benefit of beating the English at Wembley!
Q111 Chairman: Are we a pain, Helen,
from your point of view, of having to organise and get the facts
together, or is it helpful to you?
Ms Thorne: I think it has been
tremendously helpful actually, and, to be honest, we have been
scrutinised so many times since we have been set up that getting
the information together has not been that difficult. What has
been incredibly useful for us is to actually go through the individual
scrutiny reports of the individual Councils and actually pull
out all the cross council-cutting themes, not just those things
which arise from the recommendations, but there are clearly common
themes that run through the work of this Committee, and I think
we found that tremendously helpful. That is not just me and my
team but I think the Research Councils as a whole.
Q112 Chairman: So would you welcome it
again after the next election, which is not far away now, as everybody
knows—it is the best-kept secret, I guess in Britain. Maybe
not, we always try to find bigger secrets. Helen, Ian, do you
think we should carry on with as a Committee?
Ms Thorne: I think so, yes.
Professor Diamond: I think it
is a very useful exercise.
Q113 Chairman: That is very helpful.
Any ideas how we might do it better?
Professor Diamond: The only thing
I did want to say is that you are incredibly welcome, all of you,
to come down any time to RCUK, come to an executive briefing to
talk to us all, just to let yourself know on the ground what is
really happening. We are always happy to come up and have a chat
up here, of course, but just come down and meet with us, and meet
an executive group and find out what is going on so that you get
the feel of the vibrancy and collegiality that is going on, as
well as having to listen to me go on about it in a forum such
as this.
Chairman: All I know is that the many
people out there who are doing the hard work on the ground and
trying to get grants welcome the chance to see how it all happens
or does not happen as the case may be. Thank you very much for
adding to this and finalising the last of the Research Councils
for us. Thank you very much indeed.
Professor Diamond: It has been
our pleasure.
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