Select Committee on Science and Technology Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100-113)

2 FEBRUARY 2005

PROFESSOR IAN DIAMOND AND MS HELEN THORNE

  Q100 Dr Turner: Is it enough?

  Professor Diamond: Yes.

  Q101 Dr Turner: You are quite confident?

  Professor Diamond: No problem. Now, let me make it clear that there are some potential actions in the research community which could impact on that and which is part of the extremely positive dialogue that has been taking place between the Research Councils and the Higher Education sector. One, full economic costing, absolutely rightly, will include principal investigators' time. The modelling that we have done thus far has been dependent on principle investigators who currently put in the amount of time they intend spending on a project, in future putting in the same, broadly, amount of time. If suddenly everybody who is saying, "I spent 40% of my time on this project," says "I spent 80% on it," then of course the costs of current grants will increase and there is no increased money for that volume. It is for the universities and the Research Councils jointly to monitor that and we will be so doing. Secondly, if we see an inflation in, if you like, the amount being done by principal investigators instead of junior investigators then I think it is right that we take a view because, again, the costs will increase for the same amount of money, and that is over and above the modelling that has been done to ensure the extra. So there is, I am absolutely clear in my mind, a risk, but it is a risk that we are going into entirely with open eyes, we have been talking to the universities about it, and which we will be monitoring and publishing statistics on over time.

  Q102 Dr Turner: Do you think that granting full economic costs or a percentage thereof will help institutions in participating in European framework programmes where clearly the European framework grants do not cover the full economic costs either?

  Professor Diamond: I think that is a discussion that clearly needs to be had with those managing the European grants, and I know it is a discussion—and which Helen may wish to expand upon—which is being had to lobby for European Research Council money to pay something like full economic costs.

  Q103 Dr Turner: Do you want to add to that?

  Ms Thorne: Only to say that, I think as we said in our submission, what we are doing at the moment, we are looking at what the impact is likely to be and the joint project that we are running through our research office in Brussels and in the Universities in the UK, working with a number of universities in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, who are currently leading or managing or coordinating framework programme activities to try to see what the impact would be. The findings are due shortly but the preliminary findings suggest that the move to full economic cost in the UK will not have an adverse impact.

  Q104 Dr Iddon: This is probably the last line of questioning, Ian. What role will your organisation play in the development of Large-Scale Facilities? After all, this is such a strategic area covering more than one Research Council?

  Professor Diamond: Critically important, Brian; they are absolutely critically important. There is a large-scale infrastructure roadmap which was put together by the previous incarnation of the RCUK strategy group, which was the result of extremely detailed and extremely, I felt, productive discussions about where we had to prioritise and what we could prioritise on because we could not do everything. And I know that it is a priority going forward that we revise that roadmap and that we look at the priorities for large-scale infrastructure funding, and I know that Keith O'Nions has asked all Research Councils to think about the infrastructure that will be required going forward. It is absolutely critical because these are big decisions that will require prioritisation across Research Councils; it is entirely critical that RCUK plays a role in that and indeed is able to make difficult decisions with OST that will be required to be made.

  Q105 Dr Iddon: Are you involved in the ITER discussions, the fusion project?

  Professor Diamond: We are involved in all those discussions, yes.

  Q106 Dr Iddon: Could I now finally turn to the Large Facilities Fund? Are you also involved in individual Research Councils making bids to the Large Facilities Fund? For example, would you be expected to be involved in the MRC's decision to give up the Mill Hill site and move into Central London?

  Professor Diamond: You may recall the letter I wrote to you on that subject on behalf of RCUK, and that is that where individual Councils make proper decisions then it is not for RCUK to second-guess those decisions; it is for the individual Councils to make those decisions as best they see fit.

  Q107 Dr Iddon: But after the decision to move into Central London they would have to bid to the Large Facilities Fund to fund that move. Would you be involved in that?

  Professor Diamond: Anything that came to the Large Facilities roadmap and decisions thereby, RCUK clearly has to be able to take a view of the priorities for the scarce resource that exists, and that goes across Research Councils, and that is what RCUK properly did in consultation, in a discussion with the OST who make a final decision.

  Q108 Chairman: I will finish with you Ian, because I started the whole proceedings off. This for me is like beating the English at Wembley, you have achieved something. I feel that you are the last Research Council that we have scrutinised. Gosh, it has been hard work but it has been really illuminating and interesting. Does it make any difference to people like you in your job that we do this kind of scrutiny? Does it help, does it help formulate policy, even to the extent you say, "Rubbish!" How do you look upon it? I know that we can be annoying and so on; on the other hand, are some of our ideas positive and used by the Research Councils, and in that in recognising your general coordinating role there?

  Professor Diamond: Let me be absolutely frank. Your scrutiny, in my view, and our view, is an incredibly important part of the public process. We believe that it is critical that you do this, and I am going to give you my heartfelt thanks for the incredibly positive and incredibly professional way that you go about doing it. The work of your team, led by Chris, is incredibly helpful to us. The brief that you get—and I have said this to gazillions of people over the last two years since the first time I met with you and I had my initial meeting—is, I just think, second to none because you are really able to get to the heart of the matter, and in so doing we take it very seriously—and I think you have seen the effort that went into delivering not only this scrutiny but for all the individual Research Councils—

  Q109 Chairman: You did not get rehearsed by some lobbying PR group, did you, like some other friends of ours! You do not have to answer that question! You can tell me later on!

  Professor Diamond: I will also tell you what the full economic cost is of preparing for a scrutiny. I know this sounds terribly, terribly sycophantic but, at the end of the day, yes, this is a really good exercise. I know all the Research Councils look at the reports that come out and take them incredibly seriously, but it is not just looking at the reports, it is the preparation for them that enables you really properly sometimes to just take a step backwards from what you are trying to achieve and say, "Okay, what are we trying to achieve?" And that can help you formulate policy. I am a huge believer in what you are trying to achieve, but it only works—and here comes the serious creep—if you are prepared to take it as seriously as you do.

  Q110 Chairman: You bet we do!

  Professor Diamond: Then you get the great benefit of beating the English at Wembley!

  Q111 Chairman: Are we a pain, Helen, from your point of view, of having to organise and get the facts together, or is it helpful to you?

  Ms Thorne: I think it has been tremendously helpful actually, and, to be honest, we have been scrutinised so many times since we have been set up that getting the information together has not been that difficult. What has been incredibly useful for us is to actually go through the individual scrutiny reports of the individual Councils and actually pull out all the cross council-cutting themes, not just those things which arise from the recommendations, but there are clearly common themes that run through the work of this Committee, and I think we found that tremendously helpful. That is not just me and my team but I think the Research Councils as a whole.

  Q112 Chairman: So would you welcome it again after the next election, which is not far away now, as everybody knows—it is the best-kept secret, I guess in Britain. Maybe not, we always try to find bigger secrets. Helen, Ian, do you think we should carry on with as a Committee?

  Ms Thorne: I think so, yes.

  Professor Diamond: I think it is a very useful exercise.

  Q113 Chairman: That is very helpful. Any ideas how we might do it better?

  Professor Diamond: The only thing I did want to say is that you are incredibly welcome, all of you, to come down any time to RCUK, come to an executive briefing to talk to us all, just to let yourself know on the ground what is really happening. We are always happy to come up and have a chat up here, of course, but just come down and meet with us, and meet an executive group and find out what is going on so that you get the feel of the vibrancy and collegiality that is going on, as well as having to listen to me go on about it in a forum such as this.

  Chairman: All I know is that the many people out there who are doing the hard work on the ground and trying to get grants welcome the chance to see how it all happens or does not happen as the case may be. Thank you very much for adding to this and finalising the last of the Research Councils for us. Thank you very much indeed.

  Professor Diamond: It has been our pleasure.





 
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