Examination of Witnesses (Questions 209
- 219)
MONDAY 28 FEBRUARY 2005
PROFESSOR IAN
DIAMOND AND
PROFESSOR SIR
KEITH O'NIONS
Q209 Chairman: Professor Diamond,
Professor O'Nions, thank you very much for coming along and helping
us. We are sorry we are late. There is something else going on
downstairs and we are trying to keep in touch with that too. You
are old hands at this game and you know most of the people here.
If we concentrated research in a small number of excellent departments
would you consider that desirable or are there disadvantages in
it?
Professor O'Nions: I think it
is an important question, that research is highly concentrated
in a relatively small number of departments without that being
an explicit policy good, both in terms of the Higher Education
Funding Council's allocations through the Research Assessment
Exercise and the research councils. The numbers are something
like 46% of research council expenditure is within 10 universities
and just over 80% of it is within 25 universities. The numbers
for HEFCE are broadly comparable to that. That is an outcome of
excellence in terms of the research councils funding the best
people wherever they are, in terms of HEFCE supporting the best
departmental strengths wherever they are. Your question is: is
that a desirable situation? I think it is an inevitable situation
in terms of the resources we have available and the very clear
desire and indeed requirement within the ten-year framework that—
Q210 Chairman: Does that mean though
that academically it would not be the best way forward? You have
picked on resources. What about academic discoveries, teaching
and so on?
Professor O'Nions: In terms of
teaching, clearly teaching is taking place in most subjects in
a much larger number than 25 universities where research is highly
concentrated. I think your question could resolve into, is it
possible to teach at a very high level without having a research
intensive operation? As you know, that has been looked at to some
extent by Professor Graham Davies and I do not think you can assume
that it will just happen in a completely laissez-faire
situation. With appropriate connectivity and so on I think high
quality teaching can take place outside the research intensive
universities. Can I just take an example—and apologies for
the aside. In the United States there is some very high quality
teaching in a large number of both private and state universities
which does not go beyond masters level courses; they do not have
a PhD programme. It clearly can occur and should occur. Whether
we have the right encouragement for it to happen in a proper way
here is an issue that was partly addressed by Professor Graham
Davies.
Q211 Chairman: What about research?
The economy is a big thing. If we have these elite departments
in universities is that going to make a difference to our science
base? You know that we are doing a lot for the economy in terms
of science and so on. If we are having elite universities doing
this research relating to spin-outs or whatever it is, is that
the way forward, do you think?
Professor O'Nions: It has to be
part of the way forward.
Q212 Chairman: What is the other
part?
Professor O'Nions: Let me just
say that part of the way forward is almost a précis of
what you said. We need to have world class and internationally
competitive research and science to be a player in what is a globalised
scene and to understand what is going on elsewhere. The exploitation
of that is clearly a very big part of the equation in a continually
ongoing globalisation of research. The other part is the extent
to which universities which are not research intensive, which
are not getting a significant proportion of research council or
Higher Education Funding Council money have a role in terms of
innovation and working with RDAs and other businesses and so on.
My personal view is that this is an extremely important and possibly
under-developed role. I will finish by saying that on the Higher
Education Innovation Fund, which we are in discussions on at the
moment, talking to universities that are not the research intensive
ones, they enormously welcome the stimulus that the funding there
has given them and hopefully in the future will give them towards
making linkages with businesses and through the RDAs and so on.
There is a lot going on there and we probably understand it rather
less well than we do the research intensive ones.
Q213 Chairman: Do you think that
if you were young again and were in one of these elite institutions
you would find it difficult to get funding and it might make you
get on the first plane across the pond?
Professor O'Nions: I was one of
those people that got on the plane, without apology. I emigrated
to Canada and I took a PhD in Canada. I came back to Oxford. I
moved to Columbia in New York. I came back to Cambridge and have
finally stayed. That was nothing to do with leaving sinking ships.
It is the way in which many of my generation developed their careers
and probably the present generation will also work in that scene.
Q214 Chairman: When they come back
will they get grants or are they still too young?
Professor O'Nions: First class
people are getting funded in Britain and have done for a long
time.
Professor Diamond: The best people
are getting funded and I would also say that a number of research
councils have also a view of the research career and are taking,
if you like, a life course perspective on the research career
and have, for example, first grant schemes for researchers who
have not been funded, because sometimes it is important to get
people on the ladder and started on their career. I am not quite
sure if your question was about being a young person in one of
the elite universities.
Q215 Chairman: Yes.
Professor Diamond: I think it
is important that we do not miss the small pockets of real excellence
that exist outside the 25 or so universities that Keith has highlighted.
Q216 Chairman: So if elitism is removed
tomorrow will there be less chance of them getting support?
Professor Diamond: I do not think
so. The research councils' perspective is very clear and that
is to fund excellent research wherever one finds it. If you look
at EPSRC or ESRC you will find research funding in very many more
universities, and indeed over 100 universities do receive research
council funding. Where there are pockets of excellence and where
there are particularly junior pockets of excellence we do try
to enable there to be, for example, something like hubs and spokes
models which have the best junior able to be part of some of the
critical masses of larger centres, particularly where there is
expensive equipment that is required to be used to take forward
research. There are huge possibilities so long as we make that
happen.
Professor O'Nions: Can I take
your question a bit more head-on? The measure for me is partly
whether people do choose, for the right reasons, to develop part
of their careers outside the UK. I think that should and always
will be the case. The other side of the coin is the extent to
which the UK is attractive to people from other countries to come
and spend part of their career here. It is uneven but I think
you can see quite a healthy situation. We are attracting some
outstanding people to the UK in some areas of science. I am not
saying everything is perfect but I think it is very useful now.
Q217 Mr Key: But all this depends,
does it not, upon growth in the research councils' budget? When
the settlement following the spending review is announced, and
we anticipate it within the next week, that will, will it not,
show that there is going to be virtually no growth in the research
councils' budget and if there is not any research council growth
how can you achieve what you are now saying you wish to achieve?
Professor O'Nions: Let me give
you as good an indication as I can because obviously we are in
a position of advising the Secretary of State on what the allocations
to research councils will be. Within the next week or ten days
I hope the announcement is made. I think you will see very substantial
growth to research council budgets but I will address it a little
bit in detail. The priorities that are set out in the ten-year
framework are to sustain the infrastructure and the careers of
individuals and research students and so on. Quite a large amount
of the additional money going to research councils and through
them to the universities will be to support full economic costs,
ie, fixed volume, bringing more money in on the back of a particular
grant. It will be to increase fellowships, stipends and so on.
Q218 Chairman: You are addressing
the problem?
Professor O'Nions: There will
be very considerably more money. Will the volume of research grow
very greatly as a result of that? The answer is no, it will not.
Q219 Dr Harris: I just want to explore
more deeply the impact of dual support on the trend towards concentration.
How much do you think the fact that there is this dual support
system plays into this trend of research concentration in a few
institutions?
Professor O'Nions: I think quite
greatly. Convergence of policies between the Higher Education
Funding Councils to concentrate their funds selectively and to
fund excellence, which I believe was the evidence that Howard
Newby gave you quite recently, is that basically when you have
funded 5*/5 departments somewhere in funding 4 departments he
runs out of money. That in parallel with funding the best international
quality research, wherever it occurs in the system, as Ian Diamond
has enunciated, with the available resources and the availability
of world class people, has driven it into quite a highly concentrated
mode, as we have discussed.
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