Examination of Witnesses (Questions 260
- 269)
MONDAY 28 FEBRUARY 2005
PROFESSOR IAN
DIAMOND AND
PROFESSOR SIR
KEITH O'NIONS
Q260 Dr Harris: You are a top student
and you end up having paid for fees and having £12-15,000
of debt, and you are offered a salary in the City, with your maths
degree, of £25,000, with a joining-up fee of a capital amount
to pay off the debts, or they say, "no, go and teach another
year on whatever student teachers get and then go and be a maths
teacher in the public sector or even a maths lecturer." Heaven
forfend! What would you do, if you are bright?
Professor Sir Keith O'Nions: The
playing field is so tilted—and I accept that—that
you would need a pretty strong power of conviction that teaching
was the right thing to do with your life, rather than going the
alternative route.
Q261 Dr Harris: Finally, what about
the question of incentives? Do you have any evidence that the
incentives that are Government-sponsored, for example with bursaries
and post amelioration schemes, if you like, are working?
Professor Sir Keith O'Nions: Only
anecdotal. I do not have analysis of that.
Q262 Dr Harris: It is not your direct
responsibility, but I thought in policy terms you would have an
interest as someone looking beyond anecdote for the debt.
Professor Sir Keith O'Nions: I
certainly have an interest, and all of my good colleagues sitting
here in the one-and-nine-pennies will get some information to
you.
Chairman: The answer I often get is,
"get a well-paid job and you do not have to pay anything
back". That is the Government line.
Q263 Paul Farrelly: It is clear—again
on my doorstep, taking Keele as an example—that closure
is not just affecting science departments. In my area students
locally cannot be taught the classic French and German combination,
and therefore that will impact on the people coming to do French.
Given that, is there any reason why science should be a reason
for special pleading? Are science departments, because of the
system, under more pressure than other departments; or is the
problem across the board?
Professor Diamond: It is worth
remembering that Charles Clarke, the former Minister of Education,
sent a letter to HEFCE on strategic studies, which included modern
languages. It is our understanding that the HEFCE board have added,
in addition, quantitative social science to those strategic subjects.
The prescription of the research councils is that that is entirely
appropriate, and I would also have to say that AHRB, BBSRC, EPSRC
and ESRC are all currently in conversations with the funding councils
about ensuring that there are initiatives to ensure the health
of disciplines in their areas. Those with AHRB, ESRC, do include
modern languages, as you describe, because it will be important—not
just modern languages, but languages more generally. It is important
that we have that base if we are to compete in the global economy
that we find ourselves in.
Professor Sir Keith O'Nions: I
agree exactly with that: modern languages is just as important
as sciences. The only point I would add is that in relation to
teaching in engineering and physical sciences, if you are going
to respond to the point made earlier and have the practice part
of it properly taught in laboratories and so on, it does quickly
become very expensive when you add in the extra infrastructure
required.
Q264 Mr McWalter: You say it is very
important but students are just going in the market now, and they
do not want to do any subject that involves difficulty—if
they cannot read it immediately, whether it is maths or German.
Is it not about time you took a much more strategic view of these
things and were more emphatic about the skills that are needed
and make dispositions to ensure that our universities respond
not to the market but to the needs of the country?
Professor Sir Keith O'Nions: I
am very content that we should respond to skills requirements
and so on, and we have had a to and fro on that which has been
extremely healthy. However, I would toss the ball back and say
that you can do so much at that demand end of things in terms
of jobs, but the problems we are talking about here are really
pretty deeply rooted in the schools and the system of education.
In terms of mathematics, we cannot deal with that at this end
of the world, with a 25% drop in people taking A-Levels, and there
is a real question whether mathematics has to be taught more broadly
as part of a system. There are fundamental questions about A-Levels.
Q265 Chairman: If there is an ailing
science department, should the Government bale them out—yes
or no? They are going to close it: would you bale them out?
Professor Sir Keith O'Nions: In
general, no, but if there is a specific need that is identified
and there is a context of a national need, then one may make a
strategic choice, but as a general rule, no.
Q266 Chairman: Why should we not
bale them out Ian?
Professor Diamond: Firstly, universities
are autonomous and make their own decisions, and, secondly, we
would say we have to simply ensure that there is a real national
provision, and that is what we are trying very hard to do. Where
we can identify that there are disciplines that require first
aid or in emerging disciplines where there will be a need for
demand, that is where we must take strategic decisions to ensure
happening, and in so doing I cannot see that baling out that department,
unless there are contextual and real reasons—
Q267 Chairman: So what are you going
to do if more departments are closing? It is predicted that lots
of departments are going to close. This is not the end of it.
We are getting into a crisis situation with science departments,
or am I exaggerating?
Professor Sir Keith O'Nions: You
might be exaggerating slightly Chairman, at the risk of disagreeing.
If we look at chemistry and physics, there are two closures in
chemistry that are quite exceptional in the long term, ie, grade
4 departments, King's College and Exeter. The other departments
that have closed over the years are mostly chemistry and physics
departments that have been grade one and grade two departments.
We must fully accept that we have not got the deeper demographic
analysis to give a response to the simple question—
Chairman: Come on, Keith, the pattern
is happening across the country. There is Newcastle; there is
Hull.
Mr McWalter: Swansea, Hertfordshire.
Q268 Chairman: It is growing, and
you are staring at it and doing nothing about it.
Professor Sir Keith O'Nions: I
do not accept we are doing nothing about it because where levers
are in my hands or Ian's hands, we are actually doing quite a
lot. We are looking very much at the research end, and I think
we are behaving in a proactive and very sensible way. I would
not accept that we are doing nothing about it. Are we concerned
about departments closing and not understanding fully the implications
of the continuation of that trend? Yes, I share the concerns,
and I would join your appeal and prepare to play a full part in
seeing whether we can make robust, sensible analysis forecasts
around the continuation—
Q269 Chairman: Okay, well, we will
see you on the next picket line in that case. Thank you very much.
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