Examination of Witnesses (Questions 190
- 199)
MONDAY 10 JANUARY 2005
PROFESSOR ALAN
NORTH AND
PROFESSOR NANCY
ROTHWELL
Q190 Chairman: Welcome to you all
to your friendly Select Committee in this friendly subject! Alan
North and Nancy Rothwell, thank you very much for taking the time
to come out here today to help us with our inquiry into NIMR and
the process that has been going on there. Can I wish you all the
best in the New Year as well, and I am sure the one thing that
unites us all is British science and technology—much to
do, and I am sure that together we are going to do that. So in
that spirit let me ask either Alan or Nancy to start off by answering
my first question: why all these difficulties and antagonisms,
do you think? Why have they developed? What have been the key
problems that have caused this to happen, in your opinion?
Professor Rothwell: I was part
of the Forward Investment Strategy Committee but have not been
part of the Task Force, where I think you are referring to the
difficulties?
Q191 Chairman: Did the trouble start
with FIS or did it start with the Task Force, or both?
Professor Rothwell: Possibly both.
It is difficult for me to comment on anything relating to the
Task Force.
Q192 Chairman: You are here to answer
for FIS.
Professor Rothwell: I think it
is fair to say that this is a difficult and very sensitive issue.
It was always going to be. I do not know how you can avoid considering
the future of an Institute as anything less than very serious,
very important and potentially very sensitive. I think that is
unavoidable.
Q193 Chairman: Do you think that
there has been an impression all along that minds have been made
up on this matter? That FIS was set up to establish what a lot
of people thought had to happen anyway, in terms of your report
and so on being approved before it went through consultation,
et cetera? That is what is alleged; is that true, do you think?
Professor Rothwell: It is absolutely
not true.
Q194 Chairman: Then tell us what
has happened, please.
Professor Rothwell: I have seen
those allegations. I saw no evidence that any member of FIS had
any preformed opinion at the outset. Secondly, you need to remember
that this was a draft for consultation and it was not a recommendation
or a decision, and indeed any suggestion that I have heard that
Council had made up its mind is clearly flawed given that Council
then took on the Task Force. So if it had made up its mind then
the outcome would now be that NIMR would be moving to Cambridge,
so obviously that is not the case. I think Council had an open
mind, I think FIS had an open mind. I cannot speak for Task Force
but colleagues I know I think had an open mind. They tried to
face a very difficult and challenging issue to the best of their
ability.
Q195 Chairman: Did the NIMR staff
engage with this FIS enterprise and examination, and if they did
not, for example, would that have caused a lot of trouble, do
you think? Would that set the hares running and so on? Or do you
think that they were well consulted and knew exactly what was
going on?
Professor Rothwell: I think that
they were consulted towards the end of the process. Again, a difficult
decision that we considered very carefully—would it be better
to leak things out and ideas being formed before a draft consultation
had been put out? I think it would not actually; I thought so
at the time and I maintain that view. It is very difficult to
make that decision. To start to talk about say, "We wondered
about this, we will know now for the next meeting; we wondered
about that," I think probably would have been even more damaging.
Professor North: Can I just add
that the Directors of the four Institutes that were being considered
under the Forward Investment Strategy were consulted at the very
beginning of the operation and they came and met with the Forward
Investment Strategy group, I think at its third meeting, and argued
their presentation. So the directors of the Institutes were certainly
involved with what was going on.
Q196 Chairman: But did the MRC Council
not endorse your proposals for the consultation exercise?
Professor North: The MRC Council
endorsed the draft for consultation on 4 April and that went to
a period of consultation for the next six or seven weeks. Then
at the Council meeting subsequent to that we looked at the responses
to the consultation and it was clear that there were a lot of
people who were not content with the suggestion that had been
made in that draft, and that is when Council then decided to look
at the matter further and put in place the Task Force.
Q197 Chairman: Were there accusations
running around then that minds had been made up and suspicions
were running free?
Professor North: I was never accused
by anyone of having my mind made up. I do not think there were
those accusations.
Q198 Chairman: Can you perceive that
the workers at NIMR thought that?
Professor North: I visited NIMR
at about that time and certainly there did seem to be a perception
around that minds had been made up, but, in fact, I had a full
and forthright discussion with colleagues at NIMR at that time.
In fact we were there together at that meeting.
Professor Rothwell: I was there
on that visit and I would endorse that, that there was some sense
of feeling that minds had been made up and we did the best we
could to assure them that our minds had not been made up at any
stage and this was still a draft consultation, as it was said.
Q199 Chairman: Tell me a little more,
please, if you would, about the interaction with the Director
of NIMR. Did he see the report before it was floated around? What
discussion was there with him about Addenbrooke's movements and
so on? Or was it carte blanche as far as the FIS Committee
was concerned—it did not really matter?
Professor North: None of the Directors
were members of the Forward Investment Strategy group and I think
that is probably appropriate—it was a fairly small group
to draw up suggestions. The draft for consultation was passed,
I think, to the Directors at the time when it was released for
consultation.
Professor Rothwell: Just before
it was released.
Professor North: I think probably
a day or two before.
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