Examination of Witnesses (Questions 140-159)
DR PAUL
SALVESON, MRS
SHEILA DEE,
MR JONATHAN
DENBY, MR
SCOTT HANDLEY
AND MS
RUTH ANNISON
3 NOVEMBER 2004
Q140 Chairman: They are very difficult
people in Yorkshire!
Mr Handley: They are our passengers
and they are keeping the railway going and they have invested
in the company, so without them it would not be happening. What
we needed to do each day was to prove that we could deliver. We
introduced low floor buses into Wensleydale running seven days
a week and began to build a market for public transport and we
have gone on each day. As we have developed seven days a week
services at the same timetable every day the district councils
have become involved and the county council is coming on line
and we seeing a speeding up of the development process really.
Q141 Miss McIntosh: Are you able to say
that there are lower cost units for opening a line like yourselves?
Mr Handley: Without a doubt.
Q142 Ms McIntosh: To what do you attribute
that?
Mr Handley: I would not want to
give the impression that this is the answer for the railway network
or even for rural railways, but for some railways it does work.
What we try to do is tailor the way we develop new stations, for
example, or upgrade the track to what we can afford and what we
know we can deliver going forward, but also another part of our
remit is to try to reinvest locally, so where possible we plan
our works and train people appropriately to the normal standards
but in such a way that we can use local contractors, local suppliers,
and they can work with us. That does bring costs down. We are
able to control all aspects of the infrastructure as well. One
decision that we took last year as part of a major upgrading of
capacity on the line was to close the railway for three week periods
and that meant that we could provide a better service very quickly,
and they understood that.
Q143 Miss McIntosh: Is it partly because
you have a more limited service? What is your frequency and timetable
throughout the year?
Mr Handley: At the moment we operate
a train every two hours from round about 9.30 in the morning through
to mid-afternoon. At the moment it is mainly geared to taking
people into the Yorkshire Dales without their cars. Over the next
couple of years—
Q144 Chairman: You are not suggesting
you take them there but you do not bring them back. You would
be confirming some of the worst prejudices, but I am sure that
is not what you mean.
Mr Handley: At the moment the
bigger problem is people leaving the Dales and not coming back.
We do bring them back at the end of the day.
Q145 Miss McIntosh: Since this has opened,
how many passengers have you carried? Have you seen an incremental
increase?
Mr Handley: It is difficult to
say because we have not yet had a full year of figures. What we
have seen is there is quite a degree of seasonality, as you would
expect for somewhere like the Yorkshire Dales. The key objective
that we have got to increase the year round traffic is a good
connection with the mainline at Northallerton. At the moment we
are working in partnership with Arriva on their bus route in the
area and we have agreed a through ticketing arrangement which
will be our trains and their buses. We want to expand that. When
we get down to Northallerton we will see another step increase
as we are meeting the local need.
Q146 Miss McIntosh: The SRA's paper draws
on "best practice and innovative approaches of the heritage
and independent operators". Is there anything you would like
to share with us that you think you do particularly well?
Mr Handley: It is easy to think
that the secret is to keep the costs down but that is only part
of the equation. Equally important, and more important in terms
of morale of staff, is to increase the number of passengers on
the trains. We put just as much effort into making sure that the
services reflect what people want to do, and we work with local
businesses to make sure the trains arrive at the right time. That
very local objectivity and approach is important. Our services
are not based on very detailed studies, they are based on discussions
in post offices and in pubs and in community centres which leads
to where the trains go.
Q147 Miss McIntosh: What percentage of
volunteers do you have running the line?
Mr Handley: I would liken it probably
to the way a hospital might operate where the key staff are all
trained professionals but the League of Friends means a range
of things can be done if funds are raised. All our key staff are
paid staff but voluntary help means that we can do these other
things.
Q148 Ian Lucas: Mr Denby, how important
was the role of the local authority in starting up the line as
far as you were concerned?
Mr Denby: Very important. Very
clearly it was a joint initiative between the then Anglia Railways
team and Norfolk County Council. It is true to say that without
both parties being fully committed to it the partnership itself
would not have happened. It relied on funding from both parties
and an extra resource from within the county council and part
of that person's time being attributed directly to working on
the partnership. Having that consistency of approach throughout
in terms of both parties continuing to be fully committed to it
has made a very big difference because it has had a very firm
foundation around which we have then built significant other third
party funding from other bodies, smaller district councils, local
businesses, Regional Development Agencies, those sorts of bodies.
What you end up getting is a pot of money that you put together
from a number of partners that simply would not have happened
if just one of those partners on their own had been trying to
improve services on the line. Having that pot of money allows
you to more effectively and more quickly promote the line and
do small scale improvements at stations, put information into
places like the library and Tourist Information Centres, spread
the word more effectively so that those people who do not use
the railway and perhaps think that it is less frequent, less reliable
and more expensive than it actually is in practice are disabused
of that notion and realise that their local service is there and
it works very well for them.
Q149 Ian Lucas: Does it operate within
just one county, within Norfolk?
Mr Denby: There are a number of
partnerships that we are involved with. The two most well established
ones are the Bittern Line, which is the Norwich to Sheringham
route, and the Wherry Line which covers both the routes to Great
Yarmouth and to Lowestoft. Norfolk County Council have been the
most proactive of the local authorities with which we work in
pushing these initiatives forward. We have now started one in
Suffolk because they have seen the success of the one in Norfolk
and worked with us on the Ipswich to Lowestoft line which was
launched early this autumn. Indeed, in Essex they are ahead of
Suffolk and are almost as far forward as Norfolk in being proactive
in working with us.
Q150 Ian Lucas: What is the cost of the
line per route mile?
Mr Denby: I would not be able
to tell you that figure precisely because the track access charges
that we have from Network Rail presented to us are for the whole
of the area that One Railway covers, they are not broken down,
but I believe that it would be possible to get hold of that figure
through Network Rail or for Network Rail to break down their costs
of the infrastructure charges.
Q151 Ian Lucas: Could you arrange to
forward that to us?
Mr Denby: I will liaise directly
with Network Rail and ask what they can forward to you, certainly,
yes. We could also forward our costs of what it costs us as the
train operator to run that.
Q152 Ian Lucas: Do you compete with buses?
Mr Denby: There is some competition
between Cromer and Norwich but the rest of the route is not as
direct as the road route because it serves North Walsham and a
couple of other places. From that point of view there is a little
bit of competition for the Cromer-Norwich route but apart from
that there is not much competition. Under the auspices of the
county council we have co-ordinated more integrated transport
links so that you have got fares that are valid on both trains
and buses including along the North Norfolk coast.
Q153 Ian Lucas: You operate an integrated
ticketing system?
Mr Denby: We do. What we have
done is we have worked up with the help of the county council
specific arrangements so that you have got specific fares that
are valid on the trains and buses. As you might have in a metropolitan
area or where there are PTEs, we have not got complete bus/rail
integrated ticketing that all routes within Norfolk but what we
have done as a train operator is proactively said to the bus operators,
for example, "We will give you a certain amount of cash each
year" and that then means our cheap day returns into Norwich
are all valid on the bus as soon as you get into Norwich station
and you can get straight into the city centre. That was a proactive
thing that was worthwhile for the buses but also persuaded more
people to use the train to get into Norwich.
Q154 Ian Lucas: Is most of your traffic
commuter or just general traffic for shopping?
Mr Denby: It is a mix of commuter
and leisure. It is seasonal. The highest patronage is during the
months from late May through to late September when you can see
quite a significant growth in the passenger numbers during that
period. Outside that period it does stay quite steady. Apart from
the immediate post-Christmas period in January it does hold pretty
steady throughout the rest of the winter months and I think that
is because the leisure patronage is quite high and North Norfolk
is quite attractive for weekend breaks, for tourism, for bird
watching, so there are a lot of reasons why people go to North
Norfolk. The majority of the growth has been in leisure but, at
the same time, we have seen a significant increase in commuting
as well. Business traffic will be the smallest part of the patronage.
Q155 Ian Lucas: Mrs Dee, I know your
line very well and I think you are probably dealing with six local
authorities, is that right?
Mrs Dee: I get funded by six local
authorities and the train operating company.
Q156 Ian Lucas: It must be difficult
to co-ordinate that.
Mrs Dee: It takes a fair amount
of time to co-ordinate that and ensure that the funding is there.
The change of administration in any of those authorities can jeopardise
any funds that I might be expecting, shall I say, year to year.
Q157 Ian Lucas: So it is very difficult
to construct a stable plan for the line?
Mrs Dee: It is. We have done one
for the next five years with the help of the train operating company.
As Wales now has a 15 year franchise, the train operating company—Arriva—have
guaranteed five years funding for the post and the partnership
and whilst the local authorities have matched it in principle,
they can only go to their budgets year by year.
Q158 Ian Lucas: Does that inhibit development
of the line?
Mrs Dee: I would like to say it
does not but obviously it is in the background when doing any
forward planning. I am always conscious of the fact that in November
one of the local authorities may not be able to contribute fully.
Q159 Ian Lucas: In terms of development
of facilities in stations, do you have to approach individual
local authorities on a piecemeal basis?
Mrs Dee: I do. I am fortunate
that the line runs through two countries. If, shall we say, the
Welsh Assembly, as they have, install project inform systems on
the Welsh side of the line, the English local authorities feel
duly obliged to find funding to match it for the English stations.
I would not say we play off one against the other but we have
not had difficulty in funding the entire line.
Chairman: It sounds like an excellent
system, do not give it up.
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