Examination of Witnesses (Questions 240-259)
COUNCILLOR TONY
PAGE, COUNCILLOR
SHONA JOHNSTONE
AND MR
VINCE CHRISTIE
10 NOVEMBER 2004
Q240 Mr Donohoe: In the part of the country
that I represent there is a PTE which does subsidise fares quite
extraordinarily. Do you think you have that capacity as it stands
within your local government to be able to undertake a similar
scheme or do you think that the direction for it is to have, across
the whole country, areas of a size that can support such subsidies?
Mrs Johnstone: The aspiration
is fine but it comes back to the revenue funding of local authorities.
If the local authority is faced with severe pressures on its budgets,
as certainly Cambridgeshire is, and that is the only local authority
I can speak for, it would be very difficult, however much we would
aspire to do so, to be able to provide subsidies.
Q241 Chairman: Gavin Strang has suggested
that this is talking about the OFT stance on bus competition.
Have you seen any sign of that?
Mr Page: No. We have made regular
and frequent representations to Government about the current regulatory
regime and, other than the slight change announced or held out
in respect of statutory quality partnerships where the Secretary
of State made an announcement in July, we have not seen any evidence
of any real shift.
Q242 Clive Efford: Does the LGA have
input into Regional Development Agency policy, or even the policy
of local authorities, on environmental issues, traffic reduction
and trying to encourage railway use?
Mr Page: We are effectively a
trade association, so we act as a clearing house for best practice.
It is not our job to hand down policies to our member associations,
but obviously, in terms of dealings with the RDAs, there is a
close working relationship at the regional level. In all areas,
the counties and districts are represented on the appropriate
regional assembly, which parallels the RDA area. That is where
there is the close working input. Issues of national concern are
fed up to us.
Q243 Clive Efford: I realise this has
changed a lot since I was there. It always tried to lobby Government
to try to influence policy, interpret policy, and fed that back
to the local authorities. What I am driving at is that if we accept
that rail has a major role to play in traffic reduction schemes,
then surely it follows that local authorities would have an interest
in maintaining, particularly in rural areas, the rail services?
Mr Page: Yes.
Q244 Clive Efford: Following on from
that, do you think it would be sensible for regional development
agencies or local authorities to have a hands-on role in, say,
owning or part-owing rolling stock?
Mrs Johnstone: I think that would
be extremely difficult. I do not think I would support it. I go
back to an answer I gave previously, which is that, certainly
within Cambridgeshire, there are no lines which are wholly within
the county; they are through the county. Therefore, if you were
to go down that line, and it might be more appropriate for passenger
transport executives rather than for shire authorities; of shire
authorities I think you would need to have a grouping of authorities
in order for it to be even remotely practicable.
Q245 Clive Efford: Do you have roads
that just end at your county boundary? What we are trying to identify
here, and I am playing the devil's advocate, is that there does
seem to be a different attitude to rail because it goes beyond
our county boundary but for roads, that is fine, we will continue
to maintain and have a financial interest.
Mrs Johnstone: No, I am not saying
that. Roads are our responsibility. Railways are not our
responsibility. We have a role to influence and persuade but we
would essentially therefore be sending rolling stock, for example
going back to Cambridgeshire across to Suffolk or Norfolk or Hertfordshire,
or any one of the other authorities. I think we would need more
of a partnership with other shire authorities. I am not saying
that it would not be suitable for passenger transport executives
and metropolitan areas. There it might be more appropriate and
it might be possible to do it. I am thinking of shire areas where
it would be more difficult and we would need to have some sort
of partnership with neighbouring authorities.
Mr Page: The parallel is really
with bus services. Local authorities quite frequently will purchase
buses in order to let a tender with a bus supplied. Therefore,
the operator is bidding merely to provide staff and to run. That
is for a service over which we have control. Where we are tendering
a service, we specify the hours, route, fares, frequencies,
everything. Therefore, it may be logical also to purchase the
bus. Sometimes it is, sometimes it is not. We do not have that
control and influence over the provision of rail services. We
are not even the SRA in terms of when it comes to specifying tenders;
we are merely a player that can seek to influence. Therefore,
the logic in purchasing rolling stock really does not strike me
as flowing from that sort of relationship.
Q246 Clive Efford: Would regional development
agencies be a more likely vehicle for that sort of partnership,
or do you not see that being able to work either?
Mr Page: They are too big. I cannot
imagine that any of the constituent authorities would agree to
funding what would be essentially a fairly local service. I think
it would be as political—with a small b and a big b—as
that. RDAs have a strategic role. We are talking essentially about
a very local service here. Most of the lines that been exampled
in the SRA's consultation paper do not cross that many local authority
boundaries.
Q247 Chairman: Mr Page, do you have a
consistent policy about looking at rural railway stations?
Mr Page: As an LGA, no, but I
know our member authorities feel very strongly about this. Clearly,
the scope for seeing improvements to rural railway stations is
a priority for many of them. Therefore, the context of possible
redevelopments in and around the station facilitating improvements,
not only to the station itself but also to the services, is one
that they are considering.
Q248 Chairman: Does the LGA have a plain
policy that would recommend to its constituent parts they look
at the numbers of railways where rural stations are used, unused,
where there is the possibility for development and for local involvement?
Is that part of your function?
Mr Christie: I think there has
been a history of local authorities of all types taking an active
role in railway stations because in some villages the railway
station building is one of the most prominent buildings there.
If it becomes a ramshackle mess, and it has done in some places
in the past—
Q249 Chairman: You are not aware of a
consistent set of guidelines or a policy that would look carefully
at what is happening in various areas?
Mr Page: I have been involved
with the LGA since it was set up in 1997 and involved with its
transport policy since then, and I am not aware of any guidance
of that sort.
Q250 Miss McIntosh: If you feel that
there is not a role for local authorities along the lines Mr Efford
was questioning you, is there something we can learn from continental
countries like Denmark and Holland where not only is there complete
through-ticketing between trains and buses but also when the train
arrives at the station, the bus does not leave until the passengers
get off the train? Can the LGAs or local authorities generally
actually look at achieving through-ticketing and a completely
integrated service, particularly in rural areas?
Mr Page: It comes back to the
point I was making earlier about the regulatory regime. No other
European country has the completely deregulated mess of a bus
industry that we have outside London.
Q251 Chairman: Some of them are thinking
about it.
Mr Page: One or two may be, and
I was in Bologna recently urging them not to do that. I was a
voice crying in the wilderness perhaps but, nonetheless, the ghost
of Nick Ridley is still stalking parts of the European Commission,
I can assure you, Chairman.
Q252 Miss McIntosh: Why are you blaming
the regulatory and deregulatory system here?
Mr Page: Because we have no control
over the way the buses operate over 85% of the network. That is
the reality of deregulated buses. The market determines the service,
not the public authority.
Q253 Miss McIntosh: In a rural network
of buses like North Yorkshire, then there is in fact quite an
extensive grant system delivered through the county council. You
cannot wash your hands of it. What is the LGA solution?
Mr Page: I said in my first comment,
I think, and I stand to be corrected, that where bus services
were tendered, then clearly we control, as local authorities,
the timetable. It is up to us then in that situation to ensure
that integration is delivered. I am not in any way running away
from that. Clearly, if the local authority is falling down on
its duty, then we would, as an LGA, be critical of that, but I
am not aware of any examples of that.
Mrs Johnstone: Cambridgeshire
has in the past subsidised some services which link into trains.
This is rather straying away from the railways, but it seems to
me that if the bus operators want to maximise the amount of income
they get through increasing patronage, it is in their own interests
to integrate their services. It amazes me sometimes that they
still do not do that.
Chairman: What an old-fashioned attitude!
Q254 Miss McIntosh: My impression is,
though, and it is something that Mr Lundin mentioned in the session
we had with him, that countries like Denmark do give discounted
fares where you just buy 10 tickets, a carnet or a card giving
you 10 journeys in one go. Is it beyond the British operators
or the LGAs to introduce a similar system here?
Mr Page: Our authorities do not
have the power to impose that.
Miss McIntosh: You could introduce an
incentive scheme.
Chairman: I think actually that Miss
McIntosh wants a socialist government.
Q255 Miss McIntosh: I do not think that
is particularly socialist. Is there any reason that you could
not consider an incentive?
Mr Page: I am not really sure
what you mean by incentive. Do you mean a financial incentive?
Many of the operators you have referred to will already have been
receiving a substantial wad of public cash by way of tendered
services.
Q256 Miss McIntosh: These would be marketing
incentives whereby if a county council is administering the government
grant, encouraging—
Mrs Johnstone: Are you suggesting
that the county councils or the transport authorities should be
providing some sort of financial incentive?
Miss McIntosh: No, a marketing incentive
because an awful lot of this is simply marketing.
Q257 Chairman: There is confusion here.
We have established that where you are in control, you set your
standards and you can demand certain things. If you go beyond
that, you will find yourself in an argument with the OFT.
Mrs Johnstone: Certainly, I feel
very strongly that we should be encouraging more use of public
transport. One has to ask the question: should public money be
used in marketing commercial operators' services?
Q258 Ian Lucas: Are you aware of working
relationships between different local authorities, going back
to the railways, in helping to operate local rail services?
Mrs Johnstone: There are some
good examples in the Eastern Region between Norfolk and Suffolk
in the past having used Rail Partnership funding to set up new
schemes, and we have worked with Norfolk, and we will be working
with Suffolk.
Q259 Ian Lucas: Are you aware of an organisation
called TAITH in North Wales, which is a collection of local authorities
working together to try to improve local rail services there?
That is the structure that is being used at the present time to
take it forward through the use of rail. Is that a way that you
see it being taken forward?
Mr Page: I do not think there
is any single template. One of the things that we as an association
would want to do is to take examples such as that, and others,
and ensure that they are disseminated. Clearly, once the consultation
has finished, and I understand that the DfT will shortly be finalised
their response to it, then clearly there will, hopefully, be more
local authority interest and it will be our job as an association
to ensure that that interest is taken forward with as much dissemination
of good practice as possible. I think it really is horses for
courses. We do not want to impose a single, one-size-fits-all
solution. The important thing is that where you have keen voluntary
groups, where you may have existing dial-a-ride or rural bus partnership
funded schemes, it is a case of bringing together many disparate
organisations and that really is best decided locally, not by
us.
Mr Christie: We do have liaison
meetings with the SRA from time to time, and indeed the directors
have offered to meet us to talk about community railways. No doubt
when this document comes out, we will have a special meeting with
them to discuss the very things we have just been talking about
now because it is very important that they have ongoing partnerships
which are stable in developing community links.
Chairman: I think we have all been encouraged
by listening to you. I do hope, however, you will be able to go
back to the LGA and carry to them the message that local involvement
in railways ought to be carried out with the vigour that is normally
committed to the roads programme. Thank you very much for coming.
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