Examination of Witnesses (Questions 220-228)
23 JUNE 2004
MR DAVID
JAMIESON MP, MS
THERESA CROSSLEY
AND MR
PHILIP DONLAN
Q220 Ian Lucas: So that is why you are
a Minister?
Mr Jamieson: Yes.
Q221 Ian Lucas: So you are going to do
something about it?
Mr Jamieson: Well, that is why
I am saying when we get the submissions in this is something we
want to have a very close look at, as long as we do not do something
that has the reverse effect to that that we want.
Ian Lucas: Thank you.
Q222 Clive Efford: Just briefly, because
it really is on that same point and that is if we were to accept
that there is an issue around employing people in deep sea services
where there is hot competition, let us say, for employment for
people who are on lower wages, but we have had it explained to
us this afternoon by the unions representing the seafarers that
even in the short sea shipping and in our ferry industry significant
numbers of jobs have gone to people who are on lower wages. Now,
there is an economic incentive for the shipping companies to do
that. Has that caused you any concern? Have you had occasion to
comment on that, which is clearly against the intentions of your
considerations that you are requiring the companies to consider?
Mr Jamieson: Well, currently we
only have the authority, for example on the work permit scheme,
to insist that the people who are aboard the ships are EEA or
EU resident people. On the domestic passenger ferries, on dredgers
in UK waters and since 2001 on domestic scheduled freight, and
we are looking at the one port journeys as well (these are mainly
out to the rigs), we are consulting with the Home Office about
how that would be policed.
Q223 Clive Efford: So are you saying
that if that has happened that would be in clear breach of the
obligations as you understand them?
Mr Jamieson: Oh, yes. The work
permit scheme says that the offer of the employment has to be
made to an EEA employee first. If such a person does not exist
or does not come forward for the job then they can employ someone
from outside the EEA.
Q224 Clive Efford: We were told earlier
on, I think it was Mr Todd from RMT who said that 350 jobs had
disappeared in this way at Dover. So would you take that back
and investigate that?
Mr Jamieson: If it was in those
categories that I have just read out and they had not operated
the work permit scheme then clearly I am sure the union would
have brought that to our attention.
Q225 Chairman: If you look at the summary
of UK seafaring numbers 1997-2003, Minister, which I am sure you
are well acquainted with, the percentage change in the total in
training is minus 7.52. The actual total is minus 7.58. The total
active seafarers are minus 4.73. So even given the tonnage tax
we have got a problem, have we not?
Mr Jamieson: You are talking about
ratings there rather than officers?
Q226 Chairman: Well, I am talking about
cadets and officers because officers are minus 2.80 and cadets
in training, the total in training, are minus 7.52. These are
quite noticeable figures, are they not? So your total active seafarers
are down by nearly minus 5. They are not but they are nearly minus
5.
Mr Jamieson: What we have done
is what was within our gift to do and the tonnage tax, which has
now been much emulated in other countries, has brought in this
training commitment. What we have not got is the ability to insist
that people are employed by the individual companies. They make
the decisions themselves.
Q227 Chairman: Are you looking at that
aspect of it?
Mr Jamieson: Well, that is what
I have just been saying in answer to Ian Lucas, that precise point.
We need to look to see if we can put together an employment link
that is actually workable, that has the effect that we want it
to have, and I do not want it to have the opposite effect.
Q228 Chairman: How will the flag neutrality
of the UK regime be affected by the EU state aid guidelines?
Mr Donlan: I think I have probably
answered that question earlier, in that the UK's derogation from
the flag link can remain, the tonnage tax under the revised guidelines,
but there will be more stringent monitoring both of the extent
to which vessels are on the flag and there will be some commitment
that needs to be given that people will not reduce the proportion
of EU flagged vessels, but otherwise it should remain pretty much
as it is at present.
Chairman: Minister, you have had a rather
lively time this afternoon. We are grateful to you and to your
staff for coming. Thank you very much indeed.
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