Examination of Witnesses (Questions 200-219)
MR ANDREW
FREEMANTLE MBE AND
MR MICHAEL
VLASTO
2 MARCH 2005
Q200 Ian Lucas: To what extent? Can you
give me some indication of the increase?
Mr Vlasto: One very close to home,
the four lifeboat stations we set up on the Thames three years
ago. A tenth of what the Institution does now is actually done
on the Thames, which surprises a lot of people. There has been
quite a growth in recreational boating, people wanting to take
to the water, there are hazardous sports now, people are looking
for more and more excitement and the more they look for excitement
a fair proportion of them sometimes want some assistance. Despite
various sea safety programmes and prevention campaigns, on which
we work closely with the RYA and the MCA, our statistics suggest
there is plenty to do out there, an increasing amount, in fact.
Q201 Ian Lucas: Do you think that people
who are participating in the high-risk activities should be required
to make some form of contribution to your organisation and other
similar organisations?
Mr Vlasto: That is a matter which
is discussed long and hard within the Institution and has been
for many years but it does have the potential of being a slippery
slope. If you start to charge people, there will be those who
will not call for help when they should, because they do not wish
to pay or cannot afford to pay, and there could be a consequential
loss of life.
Q202 Ian Lucas: What about some form
of levy, for example, on organisations that offer high-risk leisure
activities?
Mr Vlasto: There are other ways
of dealing with it. Sailing, for example; we do not provide a
lifeboat service for sailing clubs having races on a Saturday
afternoon, we expect the sailing club to provide its own safety
boat. People involved in hiring out personal watercraft, for example,
are expected to police them, to a certain extent, and provide
some safety cover, but I think the educational process is better
than the legislative one, as things stand at the moment.
Q203 Ian Lucas: Do you not feel a bit
exploited sometimes by high-risk holiday organisations, for example?
Mr Vlasto: In the work we do we
try not to make judgments. In fact, it is one of the things that
certainly I am proudest of, that a lifeboat crew can go out and
pick up people in some very difficult circumstances, where it
is pretty obvious they got it badly wrong, but they do not make
them feel that they are complete idiots. It is something that
is reflected in feedback we get and one of the reasons why the
service is held in the regard that it is. I would say again that
the educational route, getting people who go on the water better
educated, and we feed back our experience of rescuing people to
try to help this process, and there are signs that this is beginning
to pay off.
Mr Freemantle: Most people, we
find, know they have made a prat of themselves and they don't
need us to tell them! And quite often they make a donation afterwards.
Q204 Clive Efford: Just following on
from that, are people who are involved in high-risk sports or
recreational activities required by the organisers to have any
insurance?
Mr Freemantle: Normally, they
would be, I am sure.
Q205 Clive Efford: In some circumstances,
the Ambulance Service can make a claim against insurance for having
to respond in an emergency; can you do this similarly?
Mr Freemantle: I suppose we could,
but I think, and I think the Ambulance Service sometimes finds
this as well, it is often more trouble than it is worth. We really
do value our sort of honest broker role in this and we feel that
probably we have more to lose than to gain by following up on
these things. Although the debate about charging and levying and
all the rest of it goes on continually in the RNLI, so far we
have concluded that we are better as we are.
Q206 Clive Efford: Who decides the location
of lifeboats around the UK?
Mr Vlasto: I think the Chief Executive
mentioned earlier on we have a concept of operations; again, if
I can mention just briefly what that is. The concept of our operations:
we have got a strategically-located fleet of all-weather lifeboats,
which are available at all times, and tactically-placed inshore
craft, which are subject to weather limitations, a Beach Lifeguard
Service on a seasonal basis, where appropriate, and, as I have
mentioned already, the safety education and accident prevention.
This is done to a defined standard of performance, commensurate
with the resources available, using trained and competent people
who, wherever possible, are volunteers. The Strategic Performance
Standards which underpin that are as follows. Achieve an average
launch time of 10 minutes, that is for the launch of a lifeboat
from notification to the RNLI, normally from the MCA. Reach all
notified casualties where a risk to life exists, in all weathers,
out to a maximum of 100 nautical miles. Reach at least 90% of
all casualties within 10 nautical miles of a lifeboat station
within 30 minutes of launch, in all weathers. Reach any beach
casualty up to 300 metres from the shore within the flags on RNLI
lifeguard-patrolled beaches, within three and a half minutes.
That is the concept of operations and the Strategic Performance
Standards. As far as the location of lifeboat stations is concerned,
obviously, after 180 years,—
Q207 Clive Efford: Can I ask you just
to stop there. Do come to that in a minute, but just to follow
up on what you have just said, those Strategic Performance Standards,
how did you arrive at those, why respond within those certain
periods of time? Is that to do with the location of the stations,
and what you can achieve, or is that based on what is required?
Mr Vlasto: Obviously, when that
was drawn up, after 180 years of operation, we have not got a
blank sheet of paper, we were not creating a lifeboat service
from scratch, and looking at survival times, the times people
will be able to keep going in difficult circumstances, really
that was what underpinned the reaching of those particular Performance
Standards.
Mr Freemantle: Essentially, we
reviewed our performance over the years, which we had started
to monitor. Of course, the boats have changed dramatically over
the years and now most of the all-weather boats are 25 knots,
whereas only 15 or 20 years ago they were 10 or 12 knots, so we
were pretty well aware of what we could do. Obviously, we know
where the lifeboat stations are and we are seeking to provide
coverage whereby we could meet that. Then, of course, we spoke
to the Maritime and Coastguard Agency and the Irish Coastguard
and said, "Look, this is what we've been doing, this is what
we can do; what do you think?" Basically, that was it. I
can assure you that the coverage that we provide round our coasts,
and we keep pretty close tabs on other European nations and in
fact other lifeboat services throughout the world, compares very
favourably with anywhere else.
Q208 Clive Efford: Mr Vlasto, you were
going to talk about the locations of lifeboat stations?
Mr Vlasto: Leading on from that,
we want to have joined-up coverage right the way round the coast
of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland. We review the
coverage, we do four coast reviews a year, where I go out with
the Chairman of our Operations Committee and we go to each lifeboat
station and talk to them about casualty potential. Basically,
we do a risk assessment for each lifeboat station. As has already
been said, with the boats getting faster and more technically
sophisticated, you cannot justify having two 25-knot, all-weather
lifeboats, say, six miles apart, whereas in the days of pulling
in sailing boats that is exactly what we had. There is a certain
amount of reconfiguration going on around the coast all the time
and, in general, we are probably going to end up in the future
with fewer large lifeboats and more sophisticated inshore lifeboats,
because most of what we do is done in reasonably fair weather.
Q209 Clive Efford: Have other organisations
involved in Search and Rescue had a say in the location of these
lifeboats?
Mr Vlasto: Yes. Obviously, there
is some consultation. It is very difficult, going to a lifeboat
station which has been established for 150 years and saying, "Look,
chaps, we're taking your big, shiny, orange boat away and you're
going to get a little, inflatable one." Obviously, in small
communities, where often the lifeboat is the centre of the community,
that requires considerable diplomacy to effect. This is not about
pulling pins out of a chart, it is about reconfiguring the service.
We will not reduce the number of lifeboat stations, necessarily,
but we will make sure that the choice between a big, expensive,
all-weather lifeboat and a fast, inshore lifeboat is suited to
the task that lies ahead.
Q210 Clive Efford: When there is an emergency,
who makes the decision to launch a lifeboat?
Mr Vlasto: The calls come, 99
times out of 100, from the MCA, who initiate and co-ordinate Search
and Rescue. It comes through to a person we now call the Lifeboat
Operations Manager, who is a pillar of the local community, in
most cases, who has local knowledge and he is the sort of father
figure, or mother figure, in some cases, at the station, who receives
the call. It is a request to launch, because we retain control
of our own assets, and they say, "Right, this is the situation.
We want you to launch your lifeboats to go to X, Y or Z,"
and, again, 99 times out of 100, he might ask some questions about
"Would it be more suitable to send this boat or that boat;
have you thought of this and that?" There is a short dialogue
with the Senior Watch Officer, or whoever he is talking to, and
then, "Right, yes, we will launch," and either he will
activate the pagers or it will be done through the MCA. That is
about a minute's worth and then the show gets on the road.
Q211 Clive Efford: Are there other occasions,
when there is a request to launch from the Coastguard, when that
request is refused?
Mr Vlasto: Very occasionally,
and sometimes that is down to, obviously at a lifeboat station,
the local knowledge there is bound to be better then at a Maritime
Rescue Co-ordination Centre, which might be some miles away. That
is not a criticism, it is just a fact of life. As a sort of example,
someone might say, "I've seen red flares somewhere,"
but the guy at the station knows that, in that particular direction,
it is somebody's brake-lights going round a corner at the top
end of a loch, from experience over many years, those sorts of
situations, but they are few and far between.
Q212 Clive Efford: Is there a set procedure
to go through to review a decision when there has been a request
and it has not been undertaken?
Mr Vlasto: Yes. Obviously, if
the Coastguard are not happy with that they can use other Search
and Rescue assets, but it is a very rare occurrence and we would
always err on the side of safety.
Q213 Clive Efford: You have started to
provide beach lifeguards. Is that a major drain on your resources?
Mr Freemantle: If I may take that
one, because I was involved in setting up the Beach Lifeguard
Service. We are keen, as an organisation, to provide a seamless
rescue service from the beach to the open sea, and clearly our
involvement with Beach Lifeguarding, which was a strategic decision,
was an important development which we got involved with three
or four years ago. You asked about resources. We are talking about,
if you can compare it, the cost of setting up and running one
all-weather lifeboat station, so £3 million a year is what
we spend on Beach Lifeguards. Actually, we would like to expand
the Beach Lifeguard service, because, as I mentioned, we are on
beaches only in the South West of England, but there is an issue
which, if you will give me 30 seconds, I would like to draw to
the attention of the Committee which is preventing us from doing
that. It has to do with the tendency of some local authorities
to have sloping shoulders with regard to who is responsible for
safety on public beaches, and until some clarity is brought to
that particular issue we are reluctant to expand our Beach Lifeguard
service.
Q214 Chairman: You did say to us that
you employed 300 lifeguards and some local district councils make
you a subvention; so is that the case, that actually you employ
300 lifeguards?
Mr Freemantle: Yes, on a seasonal
basis.
Q215 Chairman: They are your direct employees?
Mr Freemantle: Yes, they are,
and they have to be.
Q216 Chairman: In how many instances
do local authorities try to slope off that responsibility?
Mr Freemantle: They do not, initially.
What happens is that, before we will go onto a local authority's
beach, firstly the local authority has to want us to do it.
Q217 Chairman: They have to ask you first?
Mr Freemantle: We might approach
them, but more often than not, once we started doing it, they
approached us, therefore they have to want us. Secondly, they
have to agree that, whatever money they were spending previously
on beach lifeguarding, because they have all had beach lifeguards
before, from a variety of sources, they would give us a subvention
which would allow us to pay the lifeguards. What we feel we bring
to it, and I think people agree that we do, is quality, better
kit and better training, so they get a much better service for
the same money. The problem comes, having signed a Service Level
Agreement with these local authorities, that when you come to
renew it, of course, some, and it is only a minority, say, "Well,
hang on, it's your problem now, we're not involved any more."
Notwithstanding who provides the beach lifeguards on a public
beach, it seems to me that the local authority, who have car parks
there and franchises for all sorts of things and make money out
of that beach, nevertheless should retain the overall responsibility
for the safety on that beach. If they choose to allow us to do
it for a year at a time, well, fine, that is their choice, but
that is stopping us right now. We are being asked by local authorities
outside the South West of England to come onto their beaches,
but until someone will say, "Well, look, if it's a local
authority beach, at the end of the day they are responsible for
deciding what beach safety should be there, it is not ours, at
the end of the day," until there is some clarity on this
we have a problem.
Q218 Clive Efford: There is no statutory
responsibility then on anybody to provide any safety cover or
any advice about safety on a beach that is well used by bathers?
Mr Freemantle: Not that I am aware
of. Of course, most responsible local authorities, and most of
them are responsible, take it pretty seriously and there is not
a problem. However, there is a variety of things you can do on
a beach. You can put up a flag saying "Don't swim if the
flag is up," or you can put up a sign saying "Watch
it, if you go in the water," or you can go the whole hog
and have a proper lifeguard service with rescue boats and the
lot. When we do it, of course, we conduct a proper risk assessment
and say "This is what we require on there. As long as you
are making the subvention to us which helps us pay the lifeguards
then we will put on the beach what we think is necessary, subject
to a proper risk assessment." The problem is not initially,
the problem is a year later when we renew our—it is not
really a contract—Service Level Agreement and they try to
back away and leave us holding the can, which is something that
we are not very happy with and is stopping us doing it elsewhere.
Q219 Chairman: You provide rescue services
both in the United Kingdom and in the Republic of Ireland?
Mr Freemantle: Yes, Madam Chairman.
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