Examination of Witnesses (Questions 228-239)
MR NICK
RADIVEN, MR
DAVE CLEMPSON,
MR STEVE
QUINN, MR
ANDREW LININGTON
AND MR
ALLAN GRAVESON
2 MARCH 2005
Q228 Chairman: Good afternoon to you,
gentlemen. Can I ask firstly that you identify yourselves, for
the record, please?
Mr Radiven: I am Nick Radiven.
I am a National Officer for the Public and Commercial Services
Union.
Mr Clempson: I am Dave Clempson,
from the MCA Group, Secretary of the PCS Union.
Mr Quinn: I am Steve Quinn. I
am Watch Manager at Maritime Rescue Co-ordination Centre (MRCC)
Aberdeen and the PCS Liaison Officer for Scotland.
Mr Linington: Andrew Linington.
Head of Communications for the Maritime Union NUMAST.
Mr Graveson: Allan Graveson, Senior
National Secretary also from NUMAST.
Q229 Chairman: Thank you very much indeed.
Does either group have anything you particularly want to say before
we begin?
Mr Radiven: Madam Chairman, we
would like to make just a short opening statement.
Q230 Chairman: Yes, please do.
Mr Radiven: The PCS is the largest
union in the MCA and our members work in Coastguard ops rooms
and also as auxiliary coastguards so they are involved in all
aspects of Search and Rescue operations. PCS believe that currently
there are a significant number of factors which we feel are working
to undermine the effectiveness of Search and Rescue operations.
Firstly, the auxiliary coastguards who are responsible for carrying
out the coastal Search and Rescue response operations, of course,
they are doing this work in their spare time whilst also carrying
out full-time jobs and this can cause difficulties in the availability
of auxiliaries at any given time, because, again, as with the
RNLI volunteers, often you are relying on their employers to release
them at any time. Also there are problems with the current Working
Time regulations which place limits on the number of hours that
people can work. There are also some technical problems in terms
of contacting some of the auxiliaries, particularly in some of
the outposts and in the north of Scotland, because they have pagers
and, because of the equipment they have, sometimes there is difficulty
in calling them. This means that it does cause difficulties for
coastguards in calling out auxiliaries and often it is the case
that they have to make calls to numerous different teams of auxiliaries
to ensure that they can get there, and this can mean a delay in
getting people to the scenes of incidents. The MCA is carrying
out a review of the Auxiliary Coastguard Service at the moment
and we would hope that some of these issues that we have identified
could be addressed. Another difficulty that we have identified
is the reliance that the MCA has on voluntary organisations to
carry out the Search and Rescue functions. It means, effectively,
that the MCA does not have full control over its non-operational
assets and this can create difficulties for the ops rooms, having
to juggle resources to deal with incidents on the coast. Also,
we have a number of concerns about the staffing within ops rooms.
One thing is that, currently, not all operational senior Coastguard
members hold relevant Search and Rescue qualifications, or, for
that matter, even have experience in maritime Search and Rescue.
As these senior posts sit at the top of the chain of command in
Search and Rescue operations, we feel that really it is appropriate
for these people to have quite a high level of Search and Rescue
expertise, not least to maintain confidence of staff and people
who are working below them. The other concern we have about the
staffing of ops rooms is that we believe there is a shortage of
staff currently, and especially qualified and experienced staff,
at the appropriate grades working within ops rooms. Currently
there are vacancies around the coast for Coastguard Watch Assistants,
which is the most junior grade in an ops room, for Watch Officers
and Watch Managers. In addition, there are high numbers of probationary
and trainee CWAs and Watch Officers, and we believe that this
lack of experienced staff could seriously undermine the effectiveness
of ops rooms in dealing with emergency situations. We think that
one of the main factors contributing to staff shortages and the
lack of what we call suitably qualified and experienced staff
is the rates of pay currently in the MCA. Certainly these are
quite poor in comparison with jobs in other emergency service
jobs, for instance, in ambulance control rooms, fire control rooms
and police control rooms. The MCA carried out a study and the
conclusions were that pay really did lag behind. I think it is
the case also that people who have maritime experience are often
better able to get jobs working elsewhere, for instance, as harbour-masters,
also for the Trinity House Lifeboat Service. If they are looking
at plugging some of those gaps and making sure they can attract
the right quality staff and that experienced staff stay, really
it is essential to start looking actually at the pay structures.
Q231 Chairman: Mr Radiven, if you would
like to draw breath, maybe we could explore some of that. NUMAST,
do you have something you want to say?
Mr Linington: We would like to
thank the Committee for the decision to conduct a further inquiry
into this subject, because in many cases this is literally a matter
of life and death. As representatives of what could be described
as the end users of Search and Rescue services, we have long had
concerns over staffing, resources and strategy of SAR provision.
It has to be remembered that the UK remains a maritime nation,
we depend on ships and seafarers for 95% of our trade. Thousands
of ships pass through British waters every year and all the evidence
suggests that a significant proportion of these, as many as one
in 10, are not fit to be at sea. Add in the high proportion of
potentially dangerous or polluting cargoes and the growing size
of cruise ships and ferries, in some cases nowadays capable of
carrying in excess of 4,000 passengers, and the need for a comprehensive,
efficient and effective service really should be apparent. Unfortunately,
NUMAST believes that there are serious shortcomings in the current
arrangements. There is a lack of resources, which our colleagues
have referred to, skills shortages and an absence of strategic
direction, which present very disturbing consequences for what
is rightfully described as the nation's fourth emergency service.
It is a testament to the professionalism and skills of the staff
that, with the limitations that there are, they manage to perform
so effectively within that. Our written submission has outlined
the ways in which we believe these problems can be tackled and
we will be pleased to answer any questions you may have.
Q232 Chairman: That is helpful. Let me
ask you, first of all, do you think the United Kingdom arrangements
would be able to cope with a so-called Mass Rescue Operation,
particularly with regard to what you said about cruise ships?
Mr Graveson: I think there have
got to be certain serious questions in the event of a major or
serious incident. Happily, they do not occur too often and there
are fewer of the ones at the serious level. If one should happen,
and we have had some warnings of this, such as the Ever Decent
and Norwegian Dream collision, which quite easily could have been
a catastrophe, we do have questions, because what we have got
here is something which essentially is typically British. The
people within it are very dedicated, very committed indeed, and
the volunteers, both in the Coastguard and the RNLI, but when
we look to the structures provided by the Maritime and Coastguard
Agency we have a serious question over both structures and, above
all, resources, and the limitations on those resources I think
will be found seriously wanting. Particularly, as we have seen
in various disasters and indeed civil emergencies that can take
place. The need for helicopters is absolutely paramount and to
have sufficient of those I think is crucial. In addition to helicopters
maybe we should be looking at having rapid intervention vessels
which can go out beyond the lifeboat range to take off significant
numbers of people, should it be necessary. In those areas I believe
the UK is seriously deficient.
Q233 Chairman: You mention particularly
the age of the helicopters, and although they have been very successful
in the past you say that the range, the survivor capacity and
the ability to operate in adverse conditions need to be recognised
as a problem. Would you want to expand on that?
Mr Graveson: Yes, I would, indeed.
We are heavily reliant upon principally the Sea King helicopter
with the RN and the RAF. Even they acknowledge they are past their
sell-by date. We are waiting for the Merlin to come on stream,
and how long will it be before there is a SAR version of the Merlin?
Of course, the Coastguard helicopters are there, but again there
are very few of them. I would like to make a comparison, say,
with France, which has effectively two tiers of helicopter, the
Super Frelon, which has a 420-mile nautical range and quite a
reasonable lift capacity, and also the Alouette aircraft which
they have, which is much lighter, for seven persons, ideally for
rescuing an individual in certain circumstances, but can get out
much quicker when necessary. What we have got, essentially, is
all our eggs in one basket and it is a very ageing basket and
a very tattered basket, whereas the French have got much more,
shall we say, safety in depth and a safety provision, they have
a bag of assets which they can draw upon and which they can utilise,
which, dare I suggest, are much more capable. The people that
we have I think are second to none. The people in our Armed Forces
and in our voluntary services and the Coastguard are second to
none. The people are good but we are not necessarily giving them
the best equipment to do the job.
Q234 Chairman: The Government might say
that the MoD and the MCA decision to reform the helicopter provision
was an answer to that?
Mr Graveson: It could, but it
is happening only now. I think there is certainly a need for an
integrated service, bringing everything together, but, not only
that, it must not be seen just as an answer in itself, there is
a need for more additional resources and indeed, arguably, better
value for money. You can get better value for money by having
a range of assets and not just one single type of helicopter,
because we do have areas around the United Kingdom where it is
very sparse indeed, particularly the west of Scotland areas, I
could even look out to the Thames here, as to what is available.
If London were to face a major flood, as it did over 50 years
ago, I think we would be found wanting, seriously wanting, even
here, just adjacent to the capital city.
Q235 Mrs Ellman: To the PCS. In your
evidence, you concentrate a lot on Watch staff and you are suggesting
that there are not sufficient skills there and that training is
inadequate. Can you say what you think should be happening?
Mr Clempson: I think we can look
at some of the areas of Watch levels, like Great Yarmouth, where
there is a Coastguard Watch Assistant acting as a Watch Manager.
That person has not got the demonstrable skills or done the Search
and Rescue Co-ordination ticket. In Belfast there are people who
have been promoted temporarily and geographically and are being
utilised as a CWA, as a Watch Officer and also as a Watch Manager.
I think we can look over the last year, we can turn round and
say that there is no coastguard station, to our knowledge, which
at all times has had fully qualified staff on duty.
Q236 Chairman: Wait a minute, let us
be quite clear. In the last year there has been no coastguard
station . . .
Mr Clempson: There has been no
coastguard station, to our knowledge, that has been properly staffed
throughout the whole year.
Q237 Chairman: Fully-trained staff, a
full complement, throughout the whole year?
Mr Clempson: Yes.
Q238 Chairman: You are saying, in effect,
that all coastguard stations were operating for some part of the
year without a fully-trained staff?
Mr Clempson: Exactly, yes.
Q239 Mrs Ellman: Have any lives been
lost through this?
Mr Clempson: I do not know. At
the moment, the fact is that, coastguard stations, from the comments
and views of my members, we are being treated as lower-class citizens
and we are not being given sufficient resources and funding to
be able to maintain a fully-staffed and adequately-qualified Coastguard
Service.
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