Examination of Witnesses (Questions 220-239)
19 MAY 2004
MR ROGER
KING AND
MS KAREN
DEE
Q220 Chairman: What about the driving
licence?
Mr King: The driving licence in
terms of photo identity?
Q221 Chairman: If there were harmonisation
in terms of safety, the hours driven and the quality of driving?
Mr King: Well, of course that
is helpful from the point of view of having a common arrangement
and we have said that we welcome anything that encourages safety
and encourages fair competition. That can only be a good thing,
to have a common arrangement, although we have to express our
concerns in the case of the digital tachograph, which was going
to usher in new opportunities. That is still awaiting introduction.
It has been some 10 or 12 years in its gestation period, a fairly
simple straightforward first generation technology which has now
really been surpassed by improved technology.
Q222 Chairman: What about vehicle manufacturing
standards?
Mr King: Common sense would say
that we wanted the same construction and use of regulations for
every country that a vehicle would go through, yes, obviously.
Q223 Chairman: So you would want common
type approval?
Mr King: Yes.
Q224 Mrs Ellman: What has the effect
been of the uncertainty on digital tachograph equipment?
Mr King: Figures will differ on
that. I think the uncertainty really lies more with the truck
manufacturers, who were expected to provide this technology and
have not got any technology to provide, and that has caused them
some concern. As far as our members go, it is not a big issue.
When the changeover arrives then they will obviously have to embrace
it. Oddly enough, in anticipation of the digital tachograph last
August many companies engaged in analysing the existing tachograph
system packed up business, so we now find that there is a shortage
of capacity for reading tachographs in this country, the card
system, as a result of that. We are struggling to make up the
shortfall, but it is because of all the procrastination, delays
and chaos in Brussels which has caused a very important safety
factor to be put under stress.
Q225 Miss McIntosh: Why has it taken
so long, in your view, to introduce the digital tachograph if
the decision was made in principle in 1998?
Mr King: I think there has basically
been a problem over developing the technology. It is fairly straightforward
as it is. Also, there seems to have been a problem with finding
suppliers who are prepared to design and develop the equipment.
As of last August, I think I am right in saying only one, a French
supplier, had come forward with anything for approval and the
European Commission then felt it could not go ahead with the introduction
of the system until at least there were two suppliers approved
and time was available to allow these to be put into production
and installed on new vehicles. Even now I believe that the arrangements
made to suspend the availability of the tachograph has yet to
be done by the European Parliament, has it not?
Ms Dee: There has been a letter.
My understanding is that the Transport Commissioner wrote to Member
States to say that there would not be any enforcement action taken
against Member States that did not translate the law. Similarly,
I think that the Transport Minister here announced to Parliament
that he would not be taking any enforcement action within the
UK.
Q226 Miss McIntosh: But you would see
it as an advantage to have the digital tachograph? You would welcome
that?
Ms Dee: Yes. I think it is a simpler
system. I think it will bring advantages.
Q227 Chairman: It is a simpler system
but more difficult to change in any way?
Ms Dee: Well, I do not know about
the technical difficulties for the manufacturers in switching
over. There may be problems, I understand, in fitting the new
technology to existing vehicles.
Mr King: I think we would welcome
the fact that it would be easier because the enforcement authorities
would have the right equipment to read quickly whether a driver
had exceeded his driving hours and rest periods and in particular,
of course, with foreign drivers and trucks in the UK it would
be much easier to monitor their working envelope, as it were.
Q228 Miss McIntosh: Thank you. Could
you tell us how—it is known as cabotage—the domestic
routes are operating at the moment, both for non-British lorries
and their access to our domestic routes and other EU countries'
domestic routes to British hauliers. Are you happy with the way
it is operating at the moment?
Mr King: We are not happy. The
evidence that we seem to have from our members is that the rules
are being somewhat—I will not use the word "flouted"
but there is very little enforcement by the authorities as to
what actually happens and goes on with a foreign operator in the
UK, who may be here for up to 10 days or so with 1,500 litres
of fuel in his vehicle. He can go for 2,000 miles before he needs
to get back across the Channel. But there seems to be growing
evidence that they are offering their services for hire and reward
whenever there is an opportunity and members who are bidding for
work find that a Continental operator has actually outbid them.
As the vehicle works its way back to the Channel ports it offers
a very low rate.
Q229 Miss McIntosh: Just to understand
that completely, what you are saying is that as a consequence
of there being cheaper fuel and lower duty on mainland Europe
they are able to undercut you and bid against you for both domestic
routes in this country and for those that British hauliers are
taking to other EU countries? Is that what you are saying?
Mr King: Yes, absolutely correct.
You cannot compete with someone with considerably cheaper fuel
than you can buy and up and down the land. Certainly in the south-east,
there is a substantial number of Belgian tractor units coming
into the country to tow containers from ports that have taken
business away from indigenous Kent operators.
Q230 Miss McIntosh: What is the current
differential between a litre of diesel in Belgium and a litre
of diesel here?
Ms Dee: About 26 pence a litre,
roughly.
Q231 Miss McIntosh: So if the Chancellor
went ahead with the projected increase in September it will be
even higher?
Mr King: Yes.
Q232 Miss McIntosh: Could I ask how your
members are finding the recruiting of non-British, other EU drivers?
Mr King: That is an interesting
question in that obviously with the expansion or enlargement of
the EU some operators have looked to recruiting east European
drivers. The difficulty seems to be at the moment one of insurance.
They might have the competency to drive a vehicle and may well
have the required driving licence but insurance companies appear
to be somewhat reluctant to allow them to jump into the cab of
a right-hand drive UK truck and start driving over here. There
are schemes afoot, I think, to offer familiarisation courses for
would-be east European drivers coming into the UK but it has not
proved an instant solution and I think the industry is still working
on it.
Q233 Miss McIntosh: Finally, if the working
time restrictions do take effect would you like to place on the
record the number of additional drivers you imagine would be needed?
Mr King: Opinions vary. The Department
for Transport's own calculations, I think, was round about 20,000
extra drivers needed. We did some figures a couple of years ago
and thought 60,000 extra drivers over and above those that are
lost through natural wastage anyway. So there is no doubt that
the restriction on working hours is going to put a great strain
on the workforce. The unknown quantity is what use can be made
of the temporary driving force in this country, people who have
one job but drive at weekends, because of course their work during
the working week would count against the working hours they have
left to do any driving.
Q234 Mr Stringer: You gave a very vivid
illustration about the different ways the Irish Government and
our Government are proposing to implement the Working Time Directive.
That did not to me show any advantage to either Ireland or the
United Kingdom. Are there any ways in which countries are implementing
the Working Time Directive differently that are either to the
advantage or disadvantage of this country?
Mr King: We do not know at this
stage because all Member States are going through the same consultation
process and publication of regulations. We will get our final
regulations, I am told, at the end of May, beginning of June,
although we know basically what the Government is thinking in
terms of reference periods, night time working and so on. But
it does seem the opportunity is there for other Member States
to put a different interpretation on some elements of the Working
Time Directive which will add to the complexity.
Q235 Mr Stringer: The Irish Governments,
I presume, have published their regulations?
Mr King: Not that I know of.
Q236 Mr Stringer: I must have misunderstood
you.
Mr King: What I said was that,
for instance, we have been told by the Irish Road Haulage Association
that their core night time working might be different from ours.
Q237 Mr Stringer: So that is something
that could happen but we do not know it is going to happen?
Mr King: Yes.
Q238 Mr Stringer: You also talked about
enforcement or the lack of enforcement on foreign drivers picking
up in this country. Usually the charge is that in this country
the enforcement of European legislation is tougher than elsewhere.
Do you believe it is tougher or weaker than elsewhere in this
country and can you give an illustration?
Mr King: I think in terms of the
Working Time Directive, to give the Government credit it was on
our side in trying to get the self-employed in in the first instance,
its approach has been helpful in that we are saddled with this
arrangement but it is going to prove a bigger challenge for the
UK with a history of long working hours. One does not defend that
and our argument is that we would like to have seen this phased
in over three or four years. We asked for that some while ago.
The Government has indicated a benign touch in enforcement to
start with. We welcome that. Of course, we will not know exactly
how benign that touch will be until it is actually up and running
but it is not seeking to come and haul trucks off the road and
interrogate drivers over their working time. So we are reasonably
content about that, but how long that position will remain is
unclear. As to other countries in Europe, we do not know what
their enforcement procedure is going to be.
Q239 Mr Stringer: How does the British
road haulage business compare in efficiency? We have been given
some evidence that our industry is better at getting the loads
going both ways, going there and coming back. Is that true and
do you have evidence to support that?
Mr King: I think we have been
successful in getting empty running down by 2% or so. It was about
25 and it is about 23% now, which perhaps demonstrates a greater
use of IT technology where you can access websites and see what
return load might be in the area that you have delivered certain
goods to and you are going back to your home base. So that development
has worked quite well, but obviously for very many vehicles they
either leave the depot empty and come back full like refuse carts
or they leave the depot full, like petrol tankers, and come back
empty. So there is always going to be empty running. As to your
question on the level of transport efficiency, I think the logistics
industry full stop, which involves road transport, is considered
to be extremely efficient on a world basis.
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