Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20-39)
1 DECEMBER 2004
CHARLOTTE ATKINS
MP AND MISS
ANN FRYE
OBE
Q20 Mrs Ellman: As a department, not
what somebody else might do?
Charlotte Atkins: No; absolutely
right.
Q21 Mrs Ellman: What are you going to
do as a department?
Charlotte Atkins: We are bringing
the railway industry under greater departmental control, and part
of that process is to ensure that our railway stations are more
accessible, not just accessible but pleasanter places for everybody
to be.
Q22 Mrs Ellman: Would you make it a requirement
for all franchises to provide trains which are accessible to disabled
people?
Charlotte Atkins: They will all
be accessible to disabled people by the end date of 2020. That
is certainly the case. What we are also saying is that when trains
are refurbished that those items which are refurbished will have
to be accessible as well.
Q23 Mr Stringer: I think I am right,
Minister, in hearing you say that you were consulting on whether
voluntary codes should still apply to aviation and shipping. Why
do we need a consultation when we had Mr McNulty here 12 months
ago and heard evidence that blind people were not being allowed
on ferries, and we have evidence before us today that deaf people
are not being allowed on Iberia and EasyJet? Why do we need a
consultation? Why do not we just stop this discrimination happening?
Charlotte Atkins: At the moment
we have the voluntary code. We have been reviewing that in terms
of whether we need to bring it under the DDA, and that is the
process which we are undertaking at the moment. Certainly the
changes to the DDA mean that we can now remove that voluntary
code and introduce compulsion. We can do that now that we have
got the Disability Discrimination Bill about to go through Parliament.
We have got that option.
Miss Frye: I wonder if I might
add to that. The voluntary code of practice which applies currently
is for the UK industry. So Iberia, for example, would be outside
that code. We are however, working—
Q24 Chairman: They fly in here.
Charlotte Atkins: They fly in
here.
Q25 Chairman: Do we not have an impact
on people who fly in here in terms of health and safety?
Ann Frye: I think health and safety
possibly, but the issue we have discovered that caused the problem
with Iberia is down to something called JAR-OPS, which is the
operational manual by which pilots operate, which currently places
a limit on the number of people with reduced mobility. Clearly
that should never have been applied to deaf people. We have taken
this up because it is an international manual. We are taking it
up to try to get it amended. The captain consulted his operational
manual and did what he thought was right, so the fault, I think,
is in the international code that is behind it. We needed both
aviation and shipping to be working at international level as
well as at domestic level if we are really going to make a difference,
and that is what we are doing.
Q26 Mr Stringer: That is very helpful.
Minister, you said that we will have the power. Do you intend
to use it to stop this discrimination? Is it your objective?
Charlotte Atkins: We are doing
research to see how significant the problem is. If the voluntary
code is not seen to be working, then we will use compulsion, yes.
Q27 Mr Stringer: But I go back to the
original point I made. The voluntary code is not dealing with
EasyJet, it is not dealing with one ferry company who are not
allowing disabled people on to their ferries, so are we going
to carry on the voluntary code or are you going to do something
about it?
Charlotte Atkins: Now that we
have lifted the exemption, or now that we are about to lift the
exemption for transport services—certainly it has been the
case whereby you could have, say, a bus which is accessible and
the driver might refuse access to someone who had a disability—that
will change, and we hope that both aviation and shipping will
also comply with that. If we feel that the voluntary code which
is presently operating is not sufficient, then we will take action.
Q28 Mr Stringer: But it is not sufficient,
is it? There is discrimination happening on a daily basis. Do
you not think it would be helpful if you frightened some of these
companies that are discriminating against disabled people?
Charlotte Atkins: This is why
we are doing the research work at the moment. I do not know when
that research work is likely to be completed. I am told in the
course of next year. When we have seen that research work, if
we feel that is the case—you say it is happening on a daily
basis—if it is happening on a daily basis, we will certainly
take action, but I think we should wait for the research work
first.
Q29 Mr Stringer: I do not know if it
is happening on a daily basis; I assume it is. We had evidence
before this Committee, and it was visited with your predecessor,
and nothing is being done. The evidence is there, and I would
have thought that the Government should be setting out its stall
to stop these companies doing this?
Charlotte Atkins: We will certainly
be doing this. We will wait for the research and, as soon as we
have that, we will act on it. We have certainly made it clear
that it is inappropriate to discriminate in any way against people
with disabilities.
Q30 Mr Stringer: Can I go back to Mrs
Frye. It was a very interesting answer you gave on Iberia. What
is the situation with EasyJet?
Miss Frye: I do not know the background
entirely, but I think again the same international manual that
pilots operate by may have had an impact there. I think the other
issue in those cases is that this was a large group of people,
and certainly in the case of Iberia they had not notified of their
intention to fly. The European code does ask that disabled people
travelling in groups notify that they intend to do so. While it
is not an excuse, the problem was the exacerbated by the fact
that they turned up on board and nobody knew that they were coming
in that sort of number. It is not a fundamental problem in law;
it is a problem of practice and perception that we need to deal
with here.
Q31 Mr Stringer: That is not quite what
the evidence from the Disability Rights Commission says. It says
that the reason was that the disabled people, the deaf people,
could not hear the safety instructions; nothing to do with numbers?
Miss Frye: I think there have
been a lot of differing press reports and misunderstandings on
it. Our information is that it was the operational manual that
caused the problem, but, as I say, the fact is that it is an issue
that we can deal with best at European level by giving clear guidance
to airlines on the different disability issues. Clearly a group
of deaf people should be no more at risk than people who do not
speak the native language that is used on the aircraft.
Q32 Mr Stringer: Precisely. Minister,
do you believe that exaggerated health and safety considerations
or excessive fears about liability sometimes prevent the implementation
of sensible measures which would improve accessibility?
Charlotte Atkins: I think that
is absolutely right. I am told that there are such things called
barrow crossings—I believe there are something like 180
in the country—which have been used in some areas quite
successfully to allow people with a disability, wheelchair users,
to cross the line. Clearly in a high speed train situation it
would be not a very sensible policy, but, where you have a low
speed line and visibility is fine, it seems to me that there should
be no problem. I think health and safety on occasions can give
the impression that that is foremost rather than the need to make
all transport accessible.
Q33 Mr Stringer: This Committee has found
evidence that the Health and Safety Executive gold plate a lot
of their requirements, and I think you are agreeing with this.
In those situations where you believe the Health and Safety Executive
are making it more difficult for disabled people to access transport
in a balanced way, what are you going to do about it?
Charlotte Atkins: All we can do
is to look at the individual instances and obviously rule on those
or encourage whoever the operator is to ensure that a sensible
approach is taken: because certainly health and safety, whether
it be youngsters in school or whether it be dealing with disability,
should be taken as part of the overall assessment of the situation.
Q34 Mr Stringer: How will you approach
operators to do that? Take a real example in my briefing notes,
the grab handles that can help people who have difficulty in walking
are being recommended to be removed because people train surf
on them. What will you say to train operating companies about
that situation?
Charlotte Atkins: It would largely
be an issue for the train operating companies to make that decision,
but clearly it seems to me that by placing those handles in such
a way that they could not be grabbed from the outside in that
way, if someone is getting off a train, for instance, grab handles
could be located in a place where they could be used by people
who need them for their disability but not by people who are going
to be surfing on the back of a train.
Q35 Mr Stringer: They have to get on
the train first?
Charlotte Atkins: I appreciate
that, but there has to be a sensible approach. I do not know whether
you want to add anything?
Miss Frye: There are technical
ways of looking at how we position handles—whether they
can appear as the doors open, and so on—that enable disabled
people to gain access without leaving the temptation behind for
youngsters to surf afterwards. We are looking at technical ways
of dealing with the positioning of the handles.
Q36 Mr Stringer: When could you expect
to have a solution to this problem?
Miss Frye: It is a continuing
exercise. You are right, we need to make sure that we are not
making it worse for disabled people, so we just have to try different
solutions, but we are working with the rail industry and with
researchers to try and improve on the design features which are
there and make sure that we do not have unintended consequences
such as that one.
Q37 Miss McIntosh: Minister, you did
actually say that you are about to lift the exemption for transport
services. Why have the Department not lifted the exemption before
now?
Charlotte Atkins: The exemption
was there. We have now got the vehicle of the Disability Discrimination
Bill by which we can do that.
Q38 Miss McIntosh: You will be aware
of the fact that Leonard Cheshire have expressed their disappointment
that you have not decided as yet to remove the blanket exclusion
for transport providers. I think they feel that the situation
would have been helped if you had lifted the exemption earlier.
Charlotte Atkins: We did need
a vehicle like the legislation to do that. If we could have done
it by regulation, I am sure we would have done it, but we did
need primary legislation to do that. That is the problem.
Q39 Miss McIntosh: You have been there
for seven years?
Charlotte Atkins: This is true.
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