Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80-99)
MR TIM
O'TOOLE
8 DECEMBER 2004
Q80 Clive Efford: It is additional money?
Mr O'Toole: That is correct.
Q81 Clive Efford: I am confused because
the National Audit Office—this is London Underground PPP,
were they good deals, this is the report of the National Audit
Office, and they are making reference to these additional works
that are increasing in price, but these are not part of the PPP?
Mr O'Toole: I think they are alluding
to this point I began with, which was that when the PPP was put
in place it was not envisioned that there would be additional
money or additional works, and so to my mind there was not enough
thought given to how exactly would these additional works be negotiated.
Now we have an example, Wembley Park, which did come in at more
than we expected. In Tube Lines' defence, obviously the dispute
was not over the actual construction costs, it is the risk element
that went into, it has to be delivered within the time frame.
This is a mini Jubilee line extension.
Q82 Clive Efford: And it is you that
oversees the letting of those contracts?
Mr O'Toole: That is correct.
Q83 Clive Efford: And you can go to companies
outside the consortia to do that work?
Mr O'Toole: Once these framework
contracts are in place I can. I cannot at the moment but give
me three more weeks.
Q84 Mr Donohoe: How are you tackling
overcrowding on the trains?
Mr O'Toole: The only way to deal
with overcrowding on the trains is to provide a more reliable
service, until we have the line upgrades. When we have the line
upgrades obviously we will be able to force more trains through
the pipe which will deal with overcrowding on the trains. But
it is the reliability of the service. When you do not have the
bunching of the trains you have some opportunity to address it,
and every time there is a signal failure or there is an incident
with a passenger, or whatever, which if you have one train delayed
that delay will amplify right down the line and you will end up
with one very, very crowded train and three trains that are not
used to capacity behind it.
Q85 Mr Donohoe: Are you measuring these?
Do you monitor the overcrowding aspect of the trains?
Mr O'Toole: We do, but it is a
kind of a derivative measurement in that. We do something called
a Journey Time Measurement. That is an analysis of how long it
takes to move from one point to another on a typical journey on
a particular line, and there is a penalty in time added to that
to measure overcrowding which really addresses the people left
behind and the people who are forced to stand in circumstances
that are much tighter than they would feel comfortable with.
Q86 Mr Donohoe: Does anyone bear the
brunt of that in terms of a hit for a penalty of any description?
Do the Infracos have to pay a penalty for overcrowding at any
point?
Mr O'Toole: No, they do not, not
strictly speaking.
Q87 Mr Donohoe: Should they?
Mr O'Toole: I am measured by the
government, based on how we are doing on this Journey Time Measure.
Q88 Mr Donohoe: But should they be?
Mr O'Toole: They will in the long
run, in the sense that where the really big money comes in, either
penalty or in reward for them, will be in the line upgrades. If
they deliver the line upgrades they are going to deal with overcrowding
in the long run. In the short run they deal with it in the sense
that if there is a signal failure and it occurs at Oxford Circus,
say, at eight o'clock in the morning, the penalty on them is huge
because that is the incident that causes gross overcrowding for
me. So in that sense their penalties are in a way tied to that
phenomenon but not directly.
Q89 Mr Donohoe: To change the subject:
are you satisfied with the Prestige PFI and the introduction of
the Oyster Card system?
Mr O'Toole: In one respect I think
it has been a tremendous accomplishment that we have delivered
Oyster Card without significant operational problems; they have
been much less severe than I would have anticipated. It is, however,
critical that we roll out full functionality in order for it to
be taken up. In other words, there has to be capping; it has to
be prepay, so that we can introduce it everywhere, and that is
still in front of us. We hope to introduce that in February/March
or some time of this coming year. I think at that point it will
be easier to say positive things about that PFI.
Q90 Mr Donohoe: Have you had any negotiations
in the interim to extend these, perhaps with TOCs (Train Operating
Companies); has there been any discussion?
Mr O'Toole: Yes. It is done at
TfL level; I want to point out, not by London Underground. It
is done by Jay Walder and some folks working for them, Charlie
Monheim principally. We have had extensive discussions with the
train companies, trying to get them to come in within the Oyster
Card technology. They were pursuing a different technology for
a long time, but the fact of the matter is that we have a couple
of million Oyster Cards out there, and we are creating the market.
The smart thing, it seems to me, is to come with us. This is one
of the interesting things about the Mayor getting greater authority
over commuter rail, it is to find a way that will allow us to
spread the Oyster Card, and I think it will be better for everyone.
It will also allow me, by the way, to simplify the zonal structure.
Q91 Mr Donohoe: So you do not accept
the present zonal structure, is that what you are saying?
Mr O'Toole: I think that the existing
zonal structure is far too complex. I think nobody designs a business
with a product list some 40 pages long, and people are supposed
to comprehend it. It is not the way to deliver a simple straight
system for people. The reason it largely exists is because of
the elaborate permutations of pricing involved with the London
Underground together with the TOCs.
Q92 Mr Donohoe: So you are empowered
to change that?
Mr O'Toole: No, I am not, but
I am saying that it is the new legislation that is being passed
that suggested that the Mayor may get additional powers with regard
to commuter rail, that offers perhaps a foot in the door to deal
with that subject.
Q93 Mr Donohoe: When will the Smart Pre-Pay
Oyster cards become available?
Mr O'Toole: You can get Pre Pay
now but it will not have the take up until you have capping because
until people know that they are getting the cheapest journey I
think they are going to be resistant.
Q94 Mr Donohoe: The ones at present charge
the maximum fare, they do not charge the best fare.
Mr O'Toole: No, that is not correct.
Right now they still charge the minimum. We will go to maximum
when we are ready to roll out the capping, but right now we are
not penalising people.
Q95 Miss McIntosh: Do you expect to take
the Oyster Card technology in the direction of some systems overseas,
which have incorporated a travel card chip in mobile phones, for
instance, and in credit cards? Is that something that you think
to develop?
Mr O'Toole: Again, I do not want
to steal the thunder, take the credit for the goals someone else
kicked.
Q96 Chairman: Why not, Mr O'Toole—everybody
around here does!
Mr O'Toole: There are people at
TfL working very hard in that direction because it makes so much
sense to have a single card that will do everything; a card that
lets you get into a building you are trying to get into, a card
that lets you buy your milk, a card that lets you pay your congestion
charge and a card that lets you pay your parking fee.
Q97 Mr Donohoe: Some kind of ID card
perhaps!
Mr O'Toole: We do not have to
go to that extent, but certainly the Octopus Card in Hong Kong,
people even have chips installed in their watches and are able
to walk right through the station.
Q98 Miss McIntosh: How far ahead are
you in recruiting and training a further 100 British Transport
Police officers?
Mr O'Toole: I am sorry, I do not
know the exact number; I do not have that in front of me. But
we have made very good progress and of the 200 officers that we
have funded new from the 470 inherited, I believe we are at somewhere
like 130. But I can give you the exact number.
Q99 Miss McIntosh: I understand from
the union evidence that was given that there is concern that even
though there is a new police control centre at West Ham it is
not operating uniformly across the system. Do you wish to make
a comment about the policing of the Underground?
Mr O'Toole: I take their concerns
very seriously and I know they are quite sincere because the place
where crime has gone up on the Underground is not with regard
to our passengers; it is with regard to our staff and it is one
of the reasons why the Mayor not only funded 200 additional officers,
something like a 40% increase, but additionally we worked on them
to completely change the deployment strategy. We have gone to
this reassurance policing model where we put in officers who are
assigned to groups of stations so that their deployment can be
as a result of the agreement with the local management. If you
are at a place like Elm Park and your problem is kids hanging
around on Friday night, that is when you want the BTP there, so
you work that sort of thing out. To kick-start this we assigned
the redeployed officers to the east end first, so, for example,
the group of stations at the east end of the network are all filled
in. As these other officers come on board we are filling in the
other areas, so there are parts of the Underground that still
feel neglected under this redeployment. As was alluded to in that
prior question, this has been a tremendous success. We did not
expect to see results this soon and yet attacks on our staff are
down, morale is up, property crime is down all on the east end
of the District Line. I think it proves you do not have to be
defeated by these people. You just have to put the resources in
to deal with them.
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