Select Committee on Transport Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 240-256)

MR JOHN WEIGHT AND MR TERRY MORGAN

8 DECEMBER 2004

  Q240 Mrs Ellman: Is it correct that there is a six-month waiting list for training in fire and safety?

  Mr Weight: I need to check the figure. There is a delay because we offer training not only for our own staff but for sub-contractor staff as well. The point that was made earlier, I think by one of the gentlemen from the trade unions, that we are not working to the same accreditation is not right. There is a common training standard, there is common recognised certification throughout direct employees or sub-contractors working on the system. There is a huge demand for these places and these training schools are run at the moment mostly by us at Acton, although Terry is opening his own school so that will help alleviate that problem.

  Q241 Chairman: I am not very bright. Did that mean that there is a six-month waiting list for the safety training or did it mean there is not?

  Mr Weight: I am sorry. There is a waiting list. I am not sure that it is still six months but there is a waiting list because there is a demand but we will not allow anybody out onto the track—

  Q242 Chairman: I understand that, but if they are not there to do the work must that not impact upon the quality of your work?

  Mr Weight: We need to get more throughput, yes.

  Q243 Chairman: So we can assume that there is indeed a gap between the training programmes, the number of people you need and the speed with which they are being turned out?

  Mr Weight: There will be a relationship there, yes. Those things are linked, obviously.

  Q244 Chairman: Your staff undergo the same safety training as London Underground?

  Mr Weight: For the particular skill sets that they need, certainly.

  Q245 Mrs Ellman: What about staff turnover? How does that compare with before PPP?

  Mr Morgan: I would describe it today as very low. We have had some staff turnover but we have been recruiting at a very heavy rate. I do not deny that there is pressure to deliver performance and some people will decide that the environment has changed significantly and that they might want to try something else, but our churn in terms of turnover is less than 10%.

  Q246 Mrs Ellman: What are you doing to ensure you have sufficient planning capacity for the future when the renewals work accelerates?

  Mr Weight: I think the planning skills are important and I think it goes to the heart of something that Mr O'Toole said about effective asset management, whole life costing and that whole regime. It is important that we get skills in those key areas. That is one of the things that our shareholders bring because we have got companies that are international, global, that have experienced people in these key areas, and where we bring secondments in all these key posts that is what we do. It is also helpful, of course, to develop people we have inherited because there are a lot of very bright and highly professional people who came across to us. One of our responsibilities is to develop their skill sets as well.

  Q247 Mrs Ellman: Transport for London have criticised your planning and programme management.

  Mr Morgan: They had a requirement for a level of detail that we had not planned for. Like John, I have Bechtel in my business who bring global world-class skills to play in terms of project management. I will retain that capability. It is the whole essence of how I am going to deliver my performance, so marrying the requirements of TfL to what I am bringing in, the world's best practice—

  Q248 Chairman: You are not telling us, Mr Morgan, that Bechtel try and run everything with a broad brush but do not do much detailed work?

  Mr Morgan: They do it in their own way, in the specific way that enables them to bring best practice and continue to learn how they develop project skills.

  Q249 Chairman: But you knew who you had to deal with, you knew the detail that you were asked for, and you are telling us that Bechtel do not normally do that? Is that what you are telling us?

  Mr Morgan: No, Chair. You will know just as well as I do that we took four years to negotiate the deal in terms of—

  Q250 Chairman: So you knew the detail you were going to be asked for?

  Mr Morgan: We did not know about this level of detail till three months after—

  Q251 Chairman: And as for Bechtel, who have been responsible for large numbers of infrastructure projects all over the world, including underground trains, it came as a great shock to them to be asked for this detail?

  Mr Morgan: To be asked for a level of detail that they would not normally have done in the way that it was requested. Yes, we go into enormous detail, but it was not of the template that London Underground were asking us to work to. We have now modified those processes to get compatibility between them and what TfL were asking for so that I did not lose my best practices from Bechtel.

  Q252 Chairman: I just want to ask you one thing because I think we are getting to the end of the usefulness of this. Is it really satisfactory that you should be prepared to close so many of the lines over the weekend and in some cases three weekends in a row? Is that fair on the customers?

  Mr Weight: It is a question of balance.

  Q253 Chairman: The balance is that the customers are paying and they are not getting any services. That is the balance. Is it fair?

  Mr Weight: I cannot renew a rail if a passenger train is travelling down it. I have to have access to the system.

  Q254 Chairman: Yes, but we have just been told that, of course, you have not taken up the numbers you have said you are entitled to.

  Mr Weight: I am sorry; we are and that is not true. There is certainly availability on certain nights but in terms of the programme of track renewals and signalling renewal, that is up to speed. The point has been made, and indeed I think it has been made by TfL, that this investment will not be made without a degree of disruption. I can assure you that we talk regularly to interested groups, including passenger groups and interested representatives throughout the City of London, about whether or not it is best to bite at this in short chunks or whether it is better to do it at weekends or whether there is a regime of a large closure. It is in our interests and in London Underground's to do this in the most efficient manner, but that includes taking full account of the impact on the customer.

  Q255 Chairman: So on 22 and 23 January, 5 and 6 February, 12-13 February, 19 and 20 February, 5 and 6 March, and 26-28 March, which is Easter weekend, passengers on the District and Circle Lines will have no service?

  Mr Weight: I cannot replace the rail if there is a passenger train running down it.

  Q256 Chairman: So you are willing to give Travelcard holders a refund?

  Mr Weight: That is a matter for London Underground. I am not responsible for the fare box.

  Chairman: I see. I think, gentlemen, you have been enlightening and we are very grateful to you for coming. Thank you very much.





 
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