Examination of Witnesses (Questions 240-256)
MR JOHN
WEIGHT AND
MR TERRY
MORGAN
8 DECEMBER 2004
Q240 Mrs Ellman: Is it correct that there
is a six-month waiting list for training in fire and safety?
Mr Weight: I need to check the
figure. There is a delay because we offer training not only for
our own staff but for sub-contractor staff as well. The point
that was made earlier, I think by one of the gentlemen from the
trade unions, that we are not working to the same accreditation
is not right. There is a common training standard, there is common
recognised certification throughout direct employees or sub-contractors
working on the system. There is a huge demand for these places
and these training schools are run at the moment mostly by us
at Acton, although Terry is opening his own school so that will
help alleviate that problem.
Q241 Chairman: I am not very bright.
Did that mean that there is a six-month waiting list for the safety
training or did it mean there is not?
Mr Weight: I am sorry. There is
a waiting list. I am not sure that it is still six months but
there is a waiting list because there is a demand but we will
not allow anybody out onto the track—
Q242 Chairman: I understand that, but
if they are not there to do the work must that not impact upon
the quality of your work?
Mr Weight: We need to get more
throughput, yes.
Q243 Chairman: So we can assume that
there is indeed a gap between the training programmes, the number
of people you need and the speed with which they are being turned
out?
Mr Weight: There will be a relationship
there, yes. Those things are linked, obviously.
Q244 Chairman: Your staff undergo the
same safety training as London Underground?
Mr Weight: For the particular
skill sets that they need, certainly.
Q245 Mrs Ellman: What about staff turnover?
How does that compare with before PPP?
Mr Morgan: I would describe it
today as very low. We have had some staff turnover but we have
been recruiting at a very heavy rate. I do not deny that there
is pressure to deliver performance and some people will decide
that the environment has changed significantly and that they might
want to try something else, but our churn in terms of turnover
is less than 10%.
Q246 Mrs Ellman: What are you doing to
ensure you have sufficient planning capacity for the future when
the renewals work accelerates?
Mr Weight: I think the planning
skills are important and I think it goes to the heart of something
that Mr O'Toole said about effective asset management, whole life
costing and that whole regime. It is important that we get skills
in those key areas. That is one of the things that our shareholders
bring because we have got companies that are international, global,
that have experienced people in these key areas, and where we
bring secondments in all these key posts that is what we do. It
is also helpful, of course, to develop people we have inherited
because there are a lot of very bright and highly professional
people who came across to us. One of our responsibilities is to
develop their skill sets as well.
Q247 Mrs Ellman: Transport for London
have criticised your planning and programme management.
Mr Morgan: They had a requirement
for a level of detail that we had not planned for. Like John,
I have Bechtel in my business who bring global world-class skills
to play in terms of project management. I will retain that capability.
It is the whole essence of how I am going to deliver my performance,
so marrying the requirements of TfL to what I am bringing in,
the world's best practice—
Q248 Chairman: You are not telling us,
Mr Morgan, that Bechtel try and run everything with a broad brush
but do not do much detailed work?
Mr Morgan: They do it in their
own way, in the specific way that enables them to bring best practice
and continue to learn how they develop project skills.
Q249 Chairman: But you knew who you had
to deal with, you knew the detail that you were asked for, and
you are telling us that Bechtel do not normally do that? Is that
what you are telling us?
Mr Morgan: No, Chair. You will
know just as well as I do that we took four years to negotiate
the deal in terms of—
Q250 Chairman: So you knew the detail
you were going to be asked for?
Mr Morgan: We did not know about
this level of detail till three months after—
Q251 Chairman: And as for Bechtel, who
have been responsible for large numbers of infrastructure projects
all over the world, including underground trains, it came as a
great shock to them to be asked for this detail?
Mr Morgan: To be asked for a level
of detail that they would not normally have done in the way that
it was requested. Yes, we go into enormous detail, but it was
not of the template that London Underground were asking us to
work to. We have now modified those processes to get compatibility
between them and what TfL were asking for so that I did not lose
my best practices from Bechtel.
Q252 Chairman: I just want to ask you
one thing because I think we are getting to the end of the usefulness
of this. Is it really satisfactory that you should be prepared
to close so many of the lines over the weekend and in some cases
three weekends in a row? Is that fair on the customers?
Mr Weight: It is a question of
balance.
Q253 Chairman: The balance is that the
customers are paying and they are not getting any services. That
is the balance. Is it fair?
Mr Weight: I cannot renew a rail
if a passenger train is travelling down it. I have to have access
to the system.
Q254 Chairman: Yes, but we have just
been told that, of course, you have not taken up the numbers you
have said you are entitled to.
Mr Weight: I am sorry; we are
and that is not true. There is certainly availability on certain
nights but in terms of the programme of track renewals and signalling
renewal, that is up to speed. The point has been made, and indeed
I think it has been made by TfL, that this investment will not
be made without a degree of disruption. I can assure you that
we talk regularly to interested groups, including passenger groups
and interested representatives throughout the City of London,
about whether or not it is best to bite at this in short chunks
or whether it is better to do it at weekends or whether there
is a regime of a large closure. It is in our interests and in
London Underground's to do this in the most efficient manner,
but that includes taking full account of the impact on the customer.
Q255 Chairman: So on 22 and 23 January,
5 and 6 February, 12-13 February, 19 and 20 February, 5 and 6
March, and 26-28 March, which is Easter weekend, passengers on
the District and Circle Lines will have no service?
Mr Weight: I cannot replace the
rail if there is a passenger train running down it.
Q256 Chairman: So you are willing to
give Travelcard holders a refund?
Mr Weight: That is a matter for
London Underground. I am not responsible for the fare box.
Chairman: I see. I think, gentlemen,
you have been enlightening and we are very grateful to you for
coming. Thank you very much.
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