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UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 322-ii House of COMMONS MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE Transport Committee
Wednesday 2 March 2005 MR ANDREW FREEMANTLE MBE and MR MICHAEL VLASTO MR NICK RADIVEN, MR DAVE CLEMPSON, MR STEVE QUINN, MR ANDREW LININGTON and MR ALLAN GRAVESON
CAPTAIN STEPHEN BLIGH and MR JOHN ASTBURY MR DAVID JAMIESON MP, PHIL HOPE MP and FIONA MACTAGGART MP Evidence heard in Public Questions 162 - 435
USE OF THE TRANSCRIPT
Oral Evidence Taken before the Transport Committee on Wednesday 2 March 2005 Members present Mrs Gwyneth Dunwoody, in the Chair Mr Brian H. Donohoe Clive Efford Mrs Louise Ellman Ian Lucas Miss Anne McIntosh Mr John Randall ________________ Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Mr Andrew Freemantle MBE, Chief Executive, and Mr Michael Vlasto, Operations Director, Royal National Lifeboat Institution, examined.
Chairman: Gentlemen, we do have some housekeeping, with your permission, we would like just to deal with. Members having an interest to declare: Mr Lucas. Ian Lucas: Member of AMICUS. Clive Efford: Member of the Transport and General Workers' Union. Chairman: Gwyneth Dunwoody: ASLEF. Mr Donohoe: Member of the Transport and General Workers' Union. Mrs Ellman: Member of the Transport and General Workers' Union. Q162 Chairman: Good afternoon to you, gentlemen. You are most warmly welcome here. We do have a few house rules; perhaps we should just make it straightforward for you. This is a difficult room and it will absorb the sound of your voice. Since we are taking a record, I would be very grateful if you would note that the microphones in front of you record your voices but do not necessarily project them, so it does mean a little bit of well-known maritime force. Can I ask you, firstly, to identify yourselves, for the record, please? Mr Freemantle: I am Andrew Freemantle, Chief Executive of the RNLI, the Lifeboat Institution. Mr Vlasto: Michael Vlasto, the Operations Director of the RNLI. Q163 Chairman: Do either of you gentlemen wish to say anything before we go to questions? Mr Freemantle: Madam Chairman, I would like to make a short statement, if that is alright. Q164 Chairman: We would be very grateful to hear it. Mr Freemantle: It lasts no longer than two minutes. Madam Chairman, thank you firstly for inviting us along here this afternoon. At this point I really have nothing to add to our written submission except to reiterate that the RNLI has been providing the Sea Rescue Service, under Royal Charter but in effect on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, around the coasts of the British Isles, including the Republic of Ireland, for the last 180 years. Currently it does this to a concept of operations and Strategic Performance Standards agreed by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency and the Irish Coastguard from 233 lifeboat stations around our coasts, crewed by 4,500 volunteer crew members, supported by 30,000 or so volunteer fund-raisers, whose efforts and the generosity of the public raise the over £100 million a year necessary, that is £300k a day, to run the service. Incidentally, this now includes the provision of beach lifeguards on 57 beaches in the South West of England, the deployment of light hovercraft where there are large areas of sand and mud at low tide, for example, Morecambe, four very busy lifeboat stations on the tidal reaches of the River Thames, one right outside the window, and lifeboat stations covering three areas of inland waters. The RNLI receives no money from the British Government, although we are very grateful that the Department for International Development funded the deployment last month of our Rapid Response Unit to Georgetown, Guyana, to help deal with the flood disaster there. Last year, RNLI lifeguards responded to 8,000 incidents, made 2,000 rescues and saved the lives of 53 people. Of course, our main business is lifeboats and last year they launched over 7,600 times and rescued over 7,500 people, that is 21 every day, which meant that last year the RNLI carried out nine out of every ten of the sea surface Search and Rescue missions co‑ordinated by Her Majesty's Coastguard and this has been the case for some years now. Madam Chairman, thank you. Q165 Chairman: Mr Freemantle, I think the whole Committee would want to not only commend your organisation but also say that we are very sensitive to the fact that it is a volunteer organisation and that you do an extraordinary job which is of great importance to the United Kingdom. I want to ask you first a bit about the structures. How effective do you think the current Search and Rescue structures are, the Search and Rescue Strategic Committee and the Operators Group? Mr Freemantle: Madam Chairman, I think they are significantly more effective than they were until about three years ago. Q166 Chairman: That is not quite the same thing as being effective, is it? Mr Freemantle: We have no problem with the Strategic Committee, on which the RNLI is represented and I am a member. I think that functions quite well. It does not meet often enough, in my view. Q167 Chairman: How often does it meet? Mr Freemantle: Twice every year, but in some cases not quite as often as that. There was a gap of about 18 months when it did not meet. Q168 Chairman: Was there a reason for that? Mr Freemantle: There may have been. I do not know what it is. Q169 Chairman: Twice a year does not seem a lot for a strategic service? Mr Freemantle: I agree. Q170 Chairman: How clear is it to the Search and Rescue agencies that the Department for Transport has overall responsibility for civil maritime and aeronautical Search and Rescue? Mr Freemantle: I think it is very clear, certainly to the RNLI, and I believe the Chairman of the Strategic Committee is from that Department. Q171 Chairman: Do the large number and diversity of organisations involved affect the day‑to‑day operations? Mr Freemantle: Not really. I think over the years it has developed very well. I agree, it is a diverse group, ourselves, the MCA, the MoD and one or two others. On the face of it, it is quite fragmented but in practice I think it works well. Q172 Chairman: If you meet only twice a year, it cannot really be an indication that particular Committee controls what the individual organisations do, can it? Mr Freemantle: No. There is an Operators Committee which does the donkey-work and deals with more day-to-day matters. Q173 Chairman: Do those co‑ordinating agencies have enough control over what individual organisations do? Mr Freemantle: I think they have enough control over what the RNLI does. Q174 Chairman: Now there is a careful answer. Let me ask you again. Do you think they have enough control over what organisations other than yourselves do? Have you any reason to believe that there is a problem? Mr Freemantle: Madam Chairman, I have no reason to believe it. My colleague, of course, who is a member of the Operators Committee, may have a view also. Q175 Chairman: Forward, Mr Vlasto. You have been thrust into the limelight. Mr Vlasto: Madam Chairman, good afternoon. Yes, I am a member of the Operators Committee and I would say that is very much the engine-room of the UK Search and Rescue organisation. Having spent some years on the old UK Search and Rescue Committee, which was enormous and one had to wait sort of several meetings sometimes to get a question in, I think the way it has been restructured has proved to be far more effective. I think we have the right membership of the Operators Working Group. Q176 Chairman: How big is it? Mr Vlasto: I would way the membership probably is about 15. Q177 Chairman: You are convinced that this is an efficient organisation? Mr Vlasto: I am convinced that it is working more effectively than the organisation which was there before. Q178 Chairman: My goodness, what clever persons you are in the RNLI. That is another careful answer. You mean that it used to be a disaster, now it is just a mess; is that what you mean? Mr Vlasto: No. I think, before, it got too big because more and more organisations had an interest in Search and Rescue because more and more was going on with Search and Rescue and it grew to a size where it was unwieldy. The MCA reviewed it and it was restructured and I think that has been effective. It is not perfect but it is a lot better than it was. Q179 Mrs Ellman: Is the number of volunteers that you have declining? Mr Freemantle: No. Are you talking about fund-raising volunteers or lifeboat crew volunteers, because obviously we have two sorts of volunteers really now? Q180 Mrs Ellman: Let us start off with the crew; not fund-raisers, people assisting you? Mr Freemantle: Generally speaking, no. As I have already mentioned, we have over 4,500 lifeboat crew volunteers and in most cases we do not have a problem getting volunteers. However, there are some areas, some locations, traditionally, because our lifeboat stations are spread all round the coasts, for operational reasons, hopefully where there are people who can volunteer for the crews, but in some places there simply are not enough members of the community of the right age and temperament to volunteer. That means, from time to time, that we have to employ some full-time lifeboat crew in order to make up the numbers, for example, on the west coast of Shetland, where living there are hardly enough people to volunteer for a lifeboat crew. In most cases it is not a problem, but there are some problems with volunteers which are not necessarily to do with numbers. Q181 Mrs Ellman: In places where there are problems, is this something new or something which has always been there? Mr Freemantle: No, it has always been there. It is inevitable, with the number of stations that we have got, that we are going to have some problems in some places. It is not a problem which preoccupies us, it is a problem we have always had and so far we have been able to overcome it. Q182 Mrs Ellman: Mr Vlasto, do you want to say something about this? Mr Vlasto: Only to endorse what Mr Freemantle said. To a certain extent, the location of lifeboat stations is driven by geography and the need to provide joined‑up coverage, and the west coast of Scotland is a good example. You want sometimes to put a capital ship, a large, all‑weather lifeboat, in a place where the pool of people you have got to man it, to crew it, is quite small and, because of our training standards and the levels of competence required, it is often necessary to put additional full-time people there because of the availability of people in the community and maintaining the right level of competence. We would not send a boat to sea with a substandard crew because that was the best we could manage. Q183 Mrs Ellman: Do you find that this does not present any difficulties in running an effective service everywhere; there is no need for a statutory service? Mr Freemantle: No. Volunteers are the bedrock of the RNLI and have been since it was formed. Of course, if you look at the number of call-outs, actually having full-time people for the relatively small number of call-outs, important though each call-out is, in a year it might be, in some cases, only 15 or 20 calls. Having full-time crew sitting around for all that time I do not think would be very cost-effective, so having volunteers, properly trained, and just because they are volunteers it does not mean to say they are not professional, because they are, is the best way of doing that task, in my view. Q184 Mrs Ellman: Does Health and Safety legislation present any problems for you? Mr Freemantle: The Health and Safety Executive, of course, has jurisdiction really up to the shoreline and, yes, of course, the lifeboat station can be a dangerous environment in which to work, particularly slipway stations where the lifeboat is kept inside the shed and goes down the slipway. Potentially, this is quite a dangerous place to be so, yes, health and safety considerations are very important. Once one gets to sea then the Marine Accident Investigation Board has jurisdiction, but there is a grey area actually at the shoreline as to who has jurisdiction. Both these agencies are involved to one extent or another, and we are mindful of the requirements to look after our people because they will not volunteer if they do not feel they are going to be looked after. Q185 Mrs Ellman: Do you think that the requirements are reasonable? Mr Freemantle: Yes, I do. I think it is entirely correct that there should be organisations which keep an eye on organisations like ours to make sure that we are not endangering our people unreasonably, although we have to accept that we are asking our volunteers to do potentially dangerous jobs, and thank heavens they do them. Q186 Mrs Ellman: What about fund-raising, you mentioned that earlier, has that changed or are there any particular problems there? Mr Freemantle: Fund-raising is an increasingly competitive business. There are more and more charities in the arena and they become more and more professional at fund-raising. We have a large sum of money to raise each year, £110 million is an extraordinary amount of money to raise. We have been very fortunate in recent years that we have been beneficiaries of quite large sums of money each year from legacies, but the generation which has been so generous to us is, by definition, dying off. It would be very rash of us to assume that we are going continually to have such generosity, so we are having to look at other ways of fund-raising, less traditional ways, perhaps more commercial ways of raising money. We have opened a Lifeboat College in Poole and we are about to start training some Chinese; the Chinese are setting up a lifeboat service. There are other initiatives which we are starting to pursue which are slightly more commercial than the traditional rattling of the can in the street. That will always take place but we need to move with the times and, as I say, there are lots of other people out there fund-raising and we have got to make sure that we keep our place at the head of the queue. Q187 Mrs Ellman: What proportion of your funds comes from legacies? Mr Freemantle: On average, about 60 per cent. Q188 Mrs Ellman: It is a lot. What are you predicting that the percentage will be in the future, with you changing the methods of raising money? Mr Freemantle: It is almost impossible to predict, because obviously we do not know when people are going to die and they do not know either and often they do not indicate to us before they die that they are going to leave us any money. Surprisingly, most of the money which we are left is left by a very small number of people, perhaps only about 300, most of whom have not told us that they are leaving us the money, so it is extraordinarily difficult to predict. The indications are that for the next few years probably we will be okay, but it is during this time that we should be looking, and are looking, at slightly different ways of raising money to offset any fall-off in legacies. Q189 Mr Donohoe: Do you pay your volunteers? Mr Freemantle: We do not pay our volunteers as far as wages are concerned. However, traditionally, they have been paid some non-taxable allowances, for example, for getting their kit cleaned. I think the current call-out - we do not like to call it pay, it is an allowance - allowance is about £9 for the first hour and then a couple of quid for every hour after that. We are not really talking about wages here, we are talking about allowances, and, at least so far, the taxman has not deemed those allowances to be taxable. The Operations Director will know much more about this. Mr Vlasto: There is little I can add to that, Madam Chairman. We are extremely grateful to the employers of all our volunteers, because a lot of them take a hit, as it were, when part of their workforce leave to go out and save lives at sea, and we do develop very good working relationships with a lot of employers. Probably two-thirds of our 4,500 volunteers tend to be self-employed, so they take a personal loss every time they go out in the lifeboat. Q190 Mr Donohoe: Your coxswain is paid though, is he not? Mr Vlasto: At some of the all-weather lifeboat stations, the big lifeboat stations, some of the coxswains are paid, for the reasons that were explained earlier about the west coast of Scotland, if we cannot find a volunteer. We still have a lot of volunteer coxswains. We will pay a coxswain only if we have to, but every all-weather lifeboat station has a full-time mechanic, or boat-minder, because of the complexity and the technical aspects of modern lifeboats. Q191 Mr Donohoe: Do you believe that the UK should continue to have a voluntary organisation in charge of its Search and Rescue? Mr Freemantle: You would not expect me to say 'no'. It seems to me, and I think to most informed observers, that the RNLI has fulfilled this service for a long time pretty well. As I have indicated already, volunteers provide the service, in my opinion, in a much more cost-effective way than would full-time staff but we do have to get the blend of full-time staff, as Mr Vlasto has indicated, and volunteers correct because we are talking about lifeboats which cost over £2 million each. They are very complex bits of kit and therefore the need for a full‑time mechanic is very obvious and sometimes a full-time coxswain, but we look at every full‑time appointment very, very critically each time to make sure that we cannot use a volunteer. Q192 Mr Donohoe: We live in age when there is more likelihood of somebody being sued. Have you had any experience of that, as an organisation, of any of your volunteers suing you as a consequence of accidents, or any of their employers suing you as a consequence of their accidents? Mr Freemantle: Not employers, but I am pleased you have asked that question because it is an area of real concern, and actually, in our view, it is blurring the difference, as we see it, between an employee and a volunteer. You know that we have got 4,500 or so volunteer crew, so we are talking about a tiny, tiny percentage here, but currently we have five Employment Tribunals waiting to take place involving volunteers. It seems to me a bit of a misnomer, that an Employment Tribunal, the very title, implies that we are talking about people who are employed; these people are not employed, in our view, and not in their view either. They volunteered for the RNLI but something has happened, some grievance, some event, and they are not happy with the way in which we have tried to sort it out. When people volunteer for the RNLI we do our best to give them the best possible lifeboat, the best kit that we can afford, the best training and to look after them if something goes wrong and listen to them if they have got a problem. At the end of the day, if we are not able to satisfy them in some way, well then it seems to me blindingly obvious that, if you volunteer for something in the first place and you do not like it for some reason, you can unvolunteer yourself just as easily as you volunteered yourself in the first place. Because of the employment environment out there, if I could say, some of these people, a very small minority, feel that the only recourse they have is to go to an Employment Tribunal. I have mentioned that we have got five of these pending, which is very unfortunate, and I feel something should be done about this. Perhaps some other forum could be created which looks specifically at problems that volunteers have had that their particular organisations have not been able to resolve, so that they feel they have got somewhere else to go, because at the moment they do not have anywhere else to go, other than an Employment Tribunal. This is a real area of concern, because if these people are classed as employees they could be in breach of their own employment contract with their daytime employer, which would call into question the whole principle of our organisation, the bedrock of our organisation. Q193 Mr Donohoe: When these are engaged by you, let us say, do you get them to sign any waivers? Mr Freemantle: No. Q194 Mr Donohoe: Have you explored the possibility of a waiver? Mr Freemantle: No, we have not. We are looking at what we are calling a volunteer commitment - I hate to use the word 'charter' but that was the first word when we started to design this - some form of statement of intent as far as we are concerned and some request of the volunteer that they agree firstly to make themselves reasonably available and to do as much training as they possibly can and also to tell us about the problem and give us an opportunity to sort it out. The problem is, if you have got a group of men and women, we have got 250 or so women crew members, at a lifeboat station and basically one is a bit of a pain and the others cannot get on with them, at the end of the day, if there is a parting of the ways, I do not think really that should be a matter with which an Employment Tribunal should be involved. I hope very much that, from the deliberations you will have after this Committee, something will come out of this perhaps which will enable these matters to be dealt with in a more appropriate way. Q195 Ian Lucas: Do you have any form of arbitration procedure within the RNLI for cases such as the ones you have described? Mr Freemantle: We have what in effect is a grievance procedure, very similar to that which you will find in a public sector organisation. Q196 Ian Lucas: Where is that set down? How do you give that to volunteers? Mr Freemantle: It is published, it is given to them when they arrive, they are briefed on it and indeed are aware of it in the various regulations which are published throughout the RNLI. It is well known. I am sure you will understand that each of our lifeboat stations, although it is part of the RNLI, has a very distinct character which reflects the community from which the volunteers come. Of course, in yesteryear, some of these matters were sorted out locally, in slightly different ways, but it is very clear now that there is - we do not really like to use the word 'grievance' - a sort of resolution of differences, because as soon as you mention 'grievance' you seem to be implying that we are talking about employees, which we are not, so resolution of differences. There is a system which goes up the organisation and, at the end of the day, I would hear a grievance, and have done so from time to time, but if I do not find in favour of the complainant, well, that is it, at the moment, and of course an Employment Tribunal, which is where a small number of people have gone, in fact, they have gone much earlier than coming up the system to me. I had not heard these complaints that they have got. Q197 Ian Lucas: So you think it might be wise to have external arbitration? Mr Freemantle: What, to come in to the RNLI? Q198 Ian Lucas: For you to be able to refer difficulties to an outside body, to look at arbitration to try to avoid the Employment Tribunal route? Mr Freemantle: Certainly I would welcome, we would welcome, something which provided an alternative to the Employment Tribunal. However, to me, if we are unable to sort out our own problems, that is almost an admission of failure, in my view. One has got to balance any external involvement, but providing an alternative to an Employment Tribunal would be a very good idea. Q199 Ian Lucas: More generally, is demand increasing for the services of the RNLI at sea? Mr Freemantle: Certainly, it has increased. Mr Vlasto: Yes, year on year. Q200 Ian Lucas: To what extent? Can you give me some indication of the increase? Mr Vlasto: One very close to home, the four lifeboat stations we set up on the Thames three years ago. A tenth of what the Institution does now is actually done on the Thames, which surprises a lot of people. There has been quite a growth in recreational boating, people wanting to take to the water, there are hazardous sports now, people are looking for more and more excitement and the more they look for excitement a fair proportion of them sometimes want some assistance. Despite various sea safety programmes and prevention campaigns, on which we work closely with the RYA and the MCA, our statistics suggest there is plenty to do out there, an increasing amount, in fact. Q201 Ian Lucas: Do you think that people who are participating in the high-risk activities should be required to make some form of contribution to your organisation and other similar organisations? Mr Vlasto: That is a matter which is discussed long and hard within the Institution and has been for many years but it does have the potential of being a slippery slope. If you start to charge people, there will be those who will not call for help when they should, because they do not wish to pay or cannot afford to pay, and there could be a consequential loss of life. Q202 Ian Lucas: What about some form of levy, for example, on organisations that offer high-risk leisure activities? Mr Vlasto: There are other ways of dealing with it. Sailing, for example; we do not provide a lifeboat service for sailing clubs having races on a Saturday afternoon, we expect the sailing club to provide its own safety boat. People involved in hiring out personal watercraft, for example, are expected to police them, to a certain extent, and provide some safety cover, but I think the educational process is better than the legislative one, as things stand at the moment. Q203 Ian Lucas: Do you not feel a bit exploited sometimes by high-risk holiday organisations, for example? Mr Vlasto: In the work we do we try not to make judgments. In fact, it is one of the things that certainly I am proudest of, that a lifeboat crew can go out and pick up people in some very difficult circumstances, where it is pretty obvious they got it badly wrong, but they do not make them feel that they are complete idiots. It is something that is reflected in feedback we get and one of the reasons why the service is held in the regard that it is. I would say again that the educational route, getting people who go on the water better educated, and we feed back our experience of rescuing people to try to help this process, and there are signs that this is beginning to pay off. Mr Freemantle: Most people, we find, know they have made a prat of themselves and actually the last thing they want is for us to ask for some money, and quite often they make a donation afterwards. Q204 Clive Efford: Just following on from that, are people who are involved in high-risk sports or recreational activities required by the organisers to have any insurance? Mr Freemantle: Normally, they would be, I am sure. Q205 Clive Efford: In some circumstances, the Ambulance Service can make a claim against insurance for having to respond in an emergency; can you do this similarly? Mr Freemantle: I suppose we could, but I think, and I think the Ambulance Service sometimes finds this as well, it is often more trouble than it is worth. We really do value our sort of honest broker role in this and we feel that probably we have more to lose than to gain by following up on these things. Although the debate about charging and levying and all the rest of it goes on continually in the RNLI, so far we have concluded that we are better as we are. Q206 Clive Efford: Who decides the location of lifeboats around the UK? Mr Vlasto: I think the Chief Executive mentioned earlier on we have a concept of operations; again, if I can mention just briefly what that is. The concept of our operations: we have got a strategically-located fleet of all-weather lifeboats, which are available at all times, and tactically-placed inshore craft, which are subject to weather limitations, a Beach Lifeguard Service on a seasonal basis, where appropriate, and, as I have mentioned already, the safety education and accident prevention. This is done to a defined standard of performance, commensurate with the resources available, using trained and competent people who, wherever possible, are volunteers. The Strategic Performance Standards which underpin that are as follows. Achieve an average launch time of ten minutes, that is for the launch of a lifeboat from notification to the RNLI, normally from the MCA. Reach all notified casualties where a risk to life exists, in all weathers, out to a maximum of 100 nautical miles. Reach at least 90 per cent of all casualties within ten nautical miles of a lifeboat station within 30 minutes of launch, in all weathers. Reach any beach casualty up to 300 metres from the shore within the flags on RNLI lifeguard-patrolled beaches, within three and a half minutes. That is the concept of operations and the Strategic Performance Standards. As far as the location of lifeboat stations is concerned, obviously, after 180 years, - - - Q207 Clive Efford: Can I ask you just to stop there. Do come to that in a minute, but just to follow up on what you have just said, those Strategic Performance Standards, how did you arrive at those, why respond within those certain periods of time? Is that to do with the location of the stations, and what you can achieve, or is that based on what is required? Mr Vlasto: Obviously, when that was drawn up, after 180 years of operation, we have not got a blank sheet of paper, we were not creating a lifeboat service from scratch, and looking at survival times, the times people will be able to keep going in difficult circumstances, really that was what underpinned the reaching of those particular Performance Standards. Mr Freemantle: Essentially, we reviewed our performance over the years, which we had started to monitor. Of course, the boats have changed dramatically over the years and now most of the all-weather boats are 25 knots, whereas only 15 or 20 years ago they were ten or 12 knots, so we were pretty well aware of what we could do. Obviously, we know where the lifeboat stations are and we are seeking to provide coverage whereby we could meet that. Then, of course, we spoke to the Maritime and Coastguard Agency and the Irish Coastguard and said, "Look, this is what we've been doing, this is what we can do; what do you think?" Basically, that was it. I can assure you that the coverage that we provide round our coasts, and we keep pretty close tabs on other European nations and in fact other lifeboat stations throughout the world, compares very favourably with anywhere else. Q208 Clive Efford: Mr Vlasto, you were going to talk about the locations of lifeboat stations? Mr Vlasto: Leading on from that, we want to have joined‑up coverage right the way round the coast of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland. We review the coverage, we do four coast reviews a year, where I go out with the Chairman of our Operations Committee and we go to each lifeboat station and talk to them about casualty potential. Basically, we do a risk assessment for each lifeboat station. As has already been said, with the boats getting faster and more technically sophisticated, you cannot justify having two 25-knot, all-weather lifeboats, say, six miles apart, whereas in the days of pulling in sailing boats that is exactly what we had. There is a certain amount of reconfiguration going on around the coast all the time and, in general, we are probably going to end up in the future with fewer large lifeboats and more sophisticated inshore lifeboats, because most of what we do is done in reasonably fair weather. Q209 Clive Efford: Have other organisations involved in Search and Rescue had a say in the location of these lifeboats? Mr Vlasto: Yes. Obviously, there is some consultation. It is very difficult, going to a lifeboat station which has been established for 150 years and saying, "Look, chaps, we're taking your big, shiny, orange boat away and you're going to get a little, inflatable one." Obviously, in small communities, where often the lifeboat is the centre of the community, that requires considerable diplomacy to effect. This is not about pulling pins out of a chart, it is about reconfiguring the service. We will not reduce the number of lifeboat stations, necessarily, but we will make sure that the choice between a big, expensive, all-weather lifeboat and a fast, inshore lifeboat is suited to the task that lies ahead. Q210 Clive Efford: When there is an emergency, who makes the decision to launch a lifeboat? Mr Vlasto: The calls come, 99 times out of 100, from the MCA, who initiate and co‑ordinate Search and Rescue. It comes through to a person we now call the Lifeboat Operations Manager, who is a pillar of the local community, in most cases, who has local knowledge and he is the sort of father figure, or mother figure, in some cases, at the station, who receives the call. It is a request to launch, because we retain control of our own assets, and they say, "Right, this is the situation. We want you to launch your lifeboats to go to X, Y or Z," and, again, 99 times out of 100, he might ask some questions about "Would it be more suitable to send this boat or that boat; have you thought of this and that?" There is a short dialogue with the Senior Watch Officer, or whoever he is talking to, and then, "Right, yes, we will launch," and either he will activate the pagers or it will be done through the MCA. That is about a minute's worth and then the show gets on the road. Q211 Clive Efford: Are there other occasions, when there is a request to launch from the Coastguard, when that request is refused? Mr Vlasto: Very occasionally, and sometimes that is down to, obviously at a lifeboat station, the local knowledge there is bound to be better then at a Maritime Rescue Co‑ordination Centre, which might be some miles away. That is not a criticism, it is just a fact of life. As a sort of example, someone might say, "I've seen red flares somewhere," but the guy at the station knows that, in that particular direction, it is somebody's brake-lights going round a corner at the top end of a loch, from experience over many years, those sorts of situations, but they are few and far between. Q212 Clive Efford: Is there a set procedure to go through to review a decision when there has been a request and it has not been undertaken? Mr Vlasto: Yes. Obviously, if the Coastguard are not happy with that they can use other Search and Rescue assets, but it is a very rare occurrence and we would always err on the side of safety. Q213 Clive Efford: You have started to provide beach lifeguards. Is that a major drain on your resources? Mr Freemantle: If I may take that one, because I was involved in setting up the Beach Lifeguard Service. We are keen, as an organisation, to provide a seamless rescue service from the beach to the open sea, and clearly our involvement with Beach Lifeguard, which was a strategic decision, was an important development which we got involved with three or four years ago. You asked about resources. We are talking about, if you can compare it, the cost of setting up and running one all-weather lifeboat station, so £3 million a year is what we spend on Beach Lifeguard. Actually, we would like to expand the Beach Lifeguard service, because, as I mentioned, we are on beaches only in the South West of England, but there is an issue which, if you will give me 30 seconds, I would like to draw to the attention of the Committee which is preventing us from doing that. It has to do with the tendency of some local authorities to have sloping shoulders with regard to who is responsible for safety on public beaches, and until some clarity is brought to that particular issue we are reluctant to expand our Beach Lifeguard service. Q214 Chairman: You did say to us that you employed 300 lifeguards and some local district councils make you a subvention; so is that the case, that actually you employ 300 lifeguards? Mr Freemantle: Yes, on a seasonal basis. Q215 Chairman: They are your direct employees? Mr Freemantle: Yes, they are, and they have to be. Q216 Chairman: In how many instances do local authorities try to slope off that responsibility? Mr Freemantle: They do not, initially. What happens is that, before we will go onto a local authority's beach, firstly the local authority has to want us to do it. Q217 Chairman: They have to ask you first? Mr Freemantle: We might approach them, but more often than not, once we started doing it, they approached us, therefore they have to want us. Secondly, they have to agree that, whatever money they were spending previously on beach lifeguarding, because they have all had beach lifeguards before, from a variety of sources, they would give us a subvention which would allow us to pay the lifeguards. What we feel we bring to it, and I think people agree that we do, is quality, better kit and better training, so they get a much better service for the same money. The problem comes, having signed a Service Level Agreement with these local authorities, that when you come to renew it, of course, some, and it is only a minority, say, "Well, hang on, it's your problem now, we're not involved any more." Notwithstanding who provides the beach lifeguards on a public beach, it seems to me that the local authority, who have car parks there and franchises for all sorts of things and make money out of that beach, nevertheless should retain the overall responsibility for the safety on that beach. If they choose to allow us to do it for a year at a time, well, fine, that is their choice, but that is stopping us right now. We are being asked by local authorities outside the South West of England to come onto their beaches, but until someone will say, "Well, look, if it's a local authority beach, at the end of the day they are responsible for deciding what beach safety should be there, it is not ours, at the end of the day," until there is some clarity on this we have a problem. Q218 Clive Efford: There is no statutory responsibility then on anybody to provide any safety cover or any advice about safety on a beach that is well used by bathers? Mr Freemantle: Not that I am aware of. Of course, most responsible local authorities, and most of them are responsible, take it pretty seriously and there is not a problem. However, there is a variety of things you can do on a beach. You can put up a flag saying "Don't swim if the flag is up," or you can put up a sign saying "Watch it, if you go in the water," or you can go the whole hog and have a proper lifeguard service with rescue boats and the lot. When we do it, of course, we conduct a proper risk assessment and say "This is what we require on there. As long as you are making the subvention to us which helps us pay the lifeguards then we will put on the beach what we think is necessary, subject to a proper risk assessment." The problem is not initially, the problem is a year later when we renew our - it is not really a contract - Service Level Agreement and they try to back away and leave us holding the can, which is something that we are not very happy with and is stopping us doing it elsewhere. Q219 Chairman: You provide rescue services both in the United Kingdom and in the Republic of Ireland? Mr Freemantle: Yes, Madam Chairman. Q220 Chairman: Do you keep the finances separate for both of those organisations or do one country's donations subsidise the work in another? Mr Freemantle: We work on a holistic basis, because, of course, if we put lifeboat stations only where we were able to raise money for them then the service would look very different, if one thinks of lifeboat stations, for example, in Scotland or the west coast of Ireland, where hardly anyone lives, on the west coast of Ireland, and yet we have got a lot of large, all‑weather lifeboats there. To answer your question directly, we use the money that the public is good enough to give us to best effect wherever it is necessary. Q221 Chairman: It is interesting that you do not seem to think there is a decline in volunteers coming forward for the actual boat work? Mr Freemantle: There is a certain caché, I like to think, and I think our volunteers feel there is a caché, particularly in the local community. It is a risky business. It is exciting. We feel it epitomises the best of British and I think our volunteers actually do that. I am not suggesting that getting volunteers is easy and we have to work harder at it probably than we have had to in the past, but nevertheless we have been able and are reasonably confident that we will continue to be able to find enough volunteers in most places. Q222 Chairman: You do not really think there is any need to have some form of encouragement, because £9 for cleaning one's kit would not be regarded by many people as an enormous sum of money? Mr Freemantle: They do not do it for the money, Madam Chairman. Q223 Chairman: Obviously they do not do it for the money, but a lot of them, you have told us, are self-employed. Have you considered whether or not there ought to be some form of income substitution for these people, because they must lose income every time they are called out? Mr Freemantle: They are prepared to do that, of course. Occasionally we require a volunteer to do, say, a full-time course at our college in Poole. Under those circumstances, we do pay an allowance for loss of earnings, it is a set allowance and would be given to a solicitor or a doctor, because we have got solicitors and doctors who are lifeboat volunteers, just as we have self-employed people, and it is a flat rate. There is some 'loss of earnings' compensation when they doing full-time training, but that is not very often. Q224 Chairman: Are we not thinking very much about the future? Have you done any research at all? Presumably your work is increasing, there are more people going to sea, so have you done any work about whether there is going to be future demand that is greater? Who should be doing that research? Who should be estimating whether your work is going to increase and whether you are going to be able to meet that demand? Mr Freemantle: We are confident that we can meet the demand. Of course, the pattern of demand is changing. We refer, affectionately, I might add, to what we call the Birmingham Navy, which is the number of people from inland, not necessarily from Birmingham, who buy boats. As people have more money they buy boats and they drive them to the coast at the weekend and perhaps do not know how to drive them on the sea as well as they should, and of course quite a number of our rescues are caused because of that and that is a trend. Q225 Chairman: That is likely to increase, is it not? We have been told that leisure boating is increasing and, as more and more people regard new toys as being something they ought to have, presumably there is going to be more and more of this kind of work? What we are saying is, what planning are you doing for the basis of more rescues at sea? Mr Freemantle: Yes, we are continually improving boats and procedures and we do that all the time. It is pretty clear that there is a small incremental increase in our workload each year. We have been able to accommodate that. If you look at the number of call-outs for the average lifeboat station, it is actually quite small. It is not small here on the Thames, it is not small at Poole, but in many cases it is quite low. The only problem that we might have if the demand goes up significantly is that employers, who have been good enough to release their staff as volunteers, and do without them sometimes when they whip off in the middle of the day, might be less enthusiastic about that if the call rate goes up. That is a potential problem. Q226 Chairman: Just finally on VAT, what is happening with you as far as VAT is concerned? Mr Freemantle: We pay, I think it is, £3.9 million or so a year VAT, which is the price of two all-weather lifeboats, so if anyone would relieve us of that we could have two more all‑weather lifeboats. Q227 Chairman: You have raised this with the Treasury, presumably? Mr Freemantle: Yes, we have, and with the Tax Office. We are constantly in touch with them, and, of course, our lifeboats are not subject to VAT but there is a big grey area as to what constitutes something that contributes to the rescue service and what is a sort of administrative expense. Anything which could be done to relieve us of the VAT burden we would very much welcome, because as far as I know we must be one of the few charities where, if we ceased to exist, the Government would have to replicate our service. Chairman: On that very interesting and useful point, can I thank you both for coming this afternoon. We are very grateful to you. Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Mr Nick Radiven, National Officer, Mr Dave Clempson, Maritime and Coastguard Agency Group President, and Mr Steve Quinn, PCS member and MCA Watch Officer, Public and Commercial Services Union (PCS); and Mr Andrew Linington, Head of Communications, and Mr Allan Graveson, Senior National Secretary, NUMAST; examined. Q228 Chairman: Good afternoon to you, gentlemen. Can I ask firstly that you identify yourselves, for the record, please? Mr Radiven: I am Nick Radiven. I am a National Officer for the Public and Commercial Services Union. Mr Clempson: I am Dave Clempson, from the MCA Group, Secretary of the PCS Union. Mr Quinn: I am Steve Quinn. I am Watch Manager at Maritime Rescue Co‑ordination Centre (MRCC) Aberdeen and the PCS Liaison Officer for Scotland. Mr Linington: Andrew Linington. Head of Communications for the Maritime Union NUMAST. Mr Graveson: Allan Graveson, Senior National Secretary also from NUMAST. Q229 Chairman: Thank you very much indeed. Does either group have anything you particularly want to say before we begin? Mr Radiven: Madam Chairman, we would like to make just a short opening statement. Q230 Chairman: Yes, please do. Mr Radiven: The PCS is the largest union in the MCA and our members work in Coastguard ops rooms and also as auxiliary coastguards so they are involved in all aspects of Search and Rescue operations. PCS believe that currently there are a significant number of factors which we feel are working to undermine the effectiveness of Search and Rescue operations. Firstly, the auxiliary coastguards who are responsible for carrying out the coastal Search and Rescue Response operations, of course, they are doing this work in their spare time whilst also carrying out full-time jobs and this can cause difficulties in the availability of auxiliaries at any given time, because, again, as with the RNLI volunteers, often you are relying on their employers to release them at any time. Also there are problems with the current Working Time regulations which place limits on the number of hours that people can work. There are also some technical problems in terms of contacting some of the auxiliaries, particularly in some of the outposts and in the north of Scotland, because they have pagers and, because of the equipment they have, sometimes there is difficulty in calling them. This means that it does cause difficulties for coastguards in calling out auxiliaries and often it is the case that they have to make calls to numerous different teams of auxiliaries to ensure that they can get there, and this can mean a delay in getting people to the scenes of incidents. The MCA is carrying out a review of the Auxiliary Coastguard Service at the moment and we would hope that some of these issues that we have identified could be addressed. Another difficulty that we have identified is the reliance that the MCA has on voluntary organisations to carry out the Search and Rescue functions. It means, effectively, that the MCA does not have full control over its non‑operational assets and this can create difficulties for the ops rooms, having to juggle resources to deal with incidents on the coast. Also, we have a number of concerns about the staffing within ops rooms. One thing is that, currently, not all operational senior Coastguard members hold relevant Search and Rescue qualifications, or, for that matter, even have experience in maritime Search and Rescue. As these senior posts sit at the top of the chain of command in Search and Rescue operations, we feel that really it is appropriate for these people to have quite a high level of Search and Rescue expertise, not least to maintain confidence of staff and people who are working below them. The other concern we have about the staffing of ops rooms is that we believe there is a shortage of staff currently, and especially qualified and experienced staff, at the appropriate grades working within ops rooms. Currently there are vacancies around the coast for Coastguard Watch Assistants, which is the most junior grade in an ops room, for Watch Officers and Watch Managers. In addition, there are high numbers of probationary and trainee CWAs and Watch Officers, and we believe that this lack of experienced staff could seriously undermine the effectiveness of ops rooms in dealing with emergency situations. We think that one of the main factors contributing to staff shortages and the lack of what we call suitably qualified and experienced staff is the rates of pay currently in the MCA. Certainly these are quite poor in comparison with jobs in other emergency service jobs, for instance, in ambulance control rooms, fire control rooms and police control rooms. The MCA carried out a study and the conclusions were that pay really did lag behind. I think it is the case also that people who have maritime experience are often better able to get jobs working elsewhere, for instance, as harbour-masters, also for the Trinity House Lifeboat Service. If they are looking at plugging some of those gaps and making sure they can attract the right quality staff and that experienced staff stay, really it is essential to start looking actually at the pay structures. Q231 Chairman: Mr Radiven, if you would like to draw breath, maybe we could explore some of that. NUMAST, do you have something you want to say? Mr Linington: We would like to thank the Committee for the decision to conduct a further inquiry into this subject, because in many cases this is literally a matter of life and death. As representatives of what could be described as the end users of Search and Rescue services, we have long had concerns over staffing, resources and strategy of SAR provision. It has to be remembered that the UK remains a maritime nation, we depend on ships and seafarers for 95 per cent of our trade. Thousands of ships pass through British waters every year and all the evidence suggests that a significant proportion of these, as many as one in ten, are not fit to be at sea. Add in the high proportion of potentially dangerous or polluting cargoes and the growing size of cruise ships and ferries, in some cases nowadays capable of carrying in excess of 4,000 passengers, and the need for a comprehensive, efficient and effective service really should be apparent. Unfortunately, NUMAST believes that there are serious shortcomings in the current arrangements. There is a lack of resources, which our colleagues have referred to, skills shortages and an absence of strategic direction, which present very disturbing consequences for what is rightfully described as the nation's fourth emergency service. It is a testament to the professionalism and skills of the staff that, with the limitations that there are, they manage to perform so effectively within that. Our written submission has outlined the ways in which we believe these problems can be tackled and we will be pleased to answer any questions you may have. Q232 Chairman: That is helpful. Let me ask you, first of all, do you think the United Kingdom arrangements would be able to cope with a so-called Mass Rescue Operation, particularly with regard to what you said about cruise ships? Mr Graveson: I think there have got to be certain serious questions in the event of a major or serious incident. Happily, they do not occur too often and there are fewer of the ones at the serious level. If one should happen, and we have had some warnings of this, such as the Ever Decent and Norwegian Dream collision, which quite easily could have been a catastrophy, we do have questions, because what we have got here is something which essentially is typically British. The people within it are very dedicated, very committed indeed, and the volunteers, both in the Coastguard and the RNLI, but when we look to the structures provided by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency we have a serious question over both structures and, above all, resources, and the limitations on those resources I think will be found seriously wanting. Particularly, as we have seen in various disasters and indeed civil emergencies that can take place, the need for helicopters is absolutely paramount and to have sufficient of those I think is crucial. In addition to helicopters maybe we should be looking at having rapid intervention vessels which can go out beyond the lifeboat range to take off significant numbers of people, should it be necessary. In those areas I believe the UK is seriously deficient. Q233 Chairman: You mention particularly the age of the helicopters, and although they have been very successful in the past you say that the range, the survivor capacity and the ability to operate in adverse conditions need to be recognised as a problem. Would you want to expand on that? Mr Graveson: Yes, I would, indeed. We are heavily reliant upon principally the Sea King helicopter with the RN and the RAF. Even they acknowledge they are past their sell-by date. We are waiting for the Merlin to come on stream, and how long will it be before there is a SAR version of the Merlin? Of course, the Coastguard helicopters are there, but again there are very few of them. I would like to make a comparison, say, with France, which has effectively two tiers of helicopter, the Super Frelon, which has a 420-mile nautical range and quite a reasonable lift capacity, and also the Alouette aircraft which they have, which is much lighter, for seven persons, ideally for rescuing an individual in circumstances, but can get out much quicker when necessary. What we have got, essentially, is all our eggs in one basket and it is a very ageing basket and a very tattered basket, whereas the French have got much more, shall we say, safety in depth and a safety provision, they have a bag of assets which they can draw upon and which they can utilise, which, dare I suggest, are much more capable. The people that we have I think are second to none. The people in our Armed Forces and in our voluntary services and the Coastguard are second to none. The people are good but we are not necessarily giving them the best equipment to do the job. Q234 Chairman: The Government might say that the MoD and the MCA decision to reform the helicopter provision was an answer to that? Mr Graveson: It could, but it is happening only now. I think there is certainly a need for an integrated service, bringing everything together, but, not only that, it must not be seen just as an answer in itself, there is a need for more additional resources and indeed, arguably, better value for money. You can get better value for money by having a range of assets and not just one single type of helicopter, because we do have areas around the United Kingdom where it is very sparse indeed, particularly the west of Scotland areas, I could even look out to the Thames here, as to what is available. If London were to face a major flood, as it did over 50 years ago, I think we would be found wanting, seriously wanting, even here, just adjacent to the capital city. Q235 Mrs Ellman: To the PCS. In your evidence, you concentrate a lot on Watch staff and you are suggesting that there are not sufficient skills there and that training is inadequate. Can you say what you think should be happening? Mr Clempson: I think we can look at some of the areas of Watch levels, like Great Yarmouth, where there is a Coastguard Watch Assistant acting as a Watch Manager. That person has not got the demonstrable skills or done the Search and Rescue Co‑ordination ticket. In Belfast there are people who have been promoted temporarily and geographically and are being utilised as a CWA, as a Watch Officer and also as a Watch Manager. I think we can look over the last year, we can turn round and say that there is no coastguard station, to our knowledge, which at times has had fully qualified staff on duty. Q236 Chairman: Wait a minute, let us be quite clear. In the last year there has been no coastguard station... Mr Clempson: There has been no coastguard station, to our knowledge, that has been properly staffed throughout the whole year. Q237 Chairman: Fully-trained staff, a full complement, throughout the whole year? Mr Clempson: Yes. Q238 Chairman: You are saying, in effect, that all coastguard stations were operating for some part of the year without a fully-trained staff? Mr Clempson: Exactly, yes. Q239 Mrs Ellman: Have any lives been lost through this? Mr Clempson: I do not know. At the moment, the fact is that, coastguard stations, from the comments and views of my members, we are being treated as lower-class citizens and we are not being given sufficient resources and funding to be able to maintain a fully-staffed and adequately-qualified Coastguard Service. Q240 Mrs Ellman: What specific skills would you say are needed for Watch Officers? Mr Clempson: There is a dire shortage now of Watch Officers. Until recently, the Training Centre had no courses for Watch Officer training. Mr Quinn: I think one has been scheduled, at this moment in time, as I believe it. Q241 Chairman: What size would that be? Mr Quinn: Really I do not know. Typically, 12, 15 people on a course. Q242 Chairman: How would that address the gap, Mr Clempson? Mr Clempson: From what we have gathered, I think in our submission we gave a total of 21 Watch Officer vacancies. The Watch Officers themselves are the backbone of the service. They are the ones who have the skills and knowledge so they can take over from the Watch Manager. You are losing that skill but you are bringing in Coastguard Watch Assistants, and they are good but they do not have the necessary training and qualifications to be able to take over the role of, say, a Watch Manager. Eventually they will get promoted into that grade. Q243 Mrs Ellman: What should the Watch Manager be able to do? Mr Clempson: I have a Watch Manager here who can tell you. Q244 Mrs Ellman: Tell me what the necessary skills are? Mr Quinn: Basically, in any given incident, the Watch Manager assumes the role of the Search Mission Co‑ordinator and he will co‑ordinate all the assets that are involved in that incident, whatever it may be. If it is a coastal incident, that could be the auxiliaries that we have talked about and the RNLI lifeboats. Further offshore it could be helicopters, both Coastguard and MoD helicopters, it could be passing ships which happen to be there, Masters of vessels. If it is an oil industry incident, the oil rig company, medical authorities. The Search Mission Co‑ordinator has to co‑ordinate all these people and ensure that, if need be, a search area is produced, a fully functional search plan is produced and that the people involved actually prosecute that search plan in order to find the people they are looking for. It is a combination of skills which can be taught but experience which builds up only over time, and preferably some previous experience of actually being at sea so you know what you are asking the people out there to do in any given weather condition. Q245 Mrs Ellman: Why do you think we have got the current problems? Is this cost-driven or is it lack of vision, or something else? Mr Quinn: If I can give you a brief example. When I joined the Coastguard I was the new boy on the watch, I had ten, 12 years' sea-going experience under my belt and I was the new boy on the watch. Everybody else on the watch, the other four or five people, all had years of experience at sea and in the Coastguard. Now, quite often, it is the case that if the Watch Manager is not there, he is on leave, or whatever, there is no sea-going experience in that ops room at all, and that is not anybody's fault, it is just that the source of recruits is no longer there. The British Merchant Navy having shrunk considerably, there is no longer this pool of recruits to come in with the background experience. Q246 Mrs Ellman: Mr Linington, you said before that there was a problem in terms of resources, skills and strategic direction. What is the most serious problem that has come from a lack of strategic direction? Mr Linington: My colleague will answer. Mr Graveson: I think one of the problems is that now we have an Agency divorced from a department of Government. The Agency has to work within the constraints of the department of Government to a budget and people within the Coastguard tell us, "Look, we'll be seen not to be doing our job if we can't work efficiently with the resources we're given." Really what we are looking for is an effective service and for that it needs more additional resources. It is quite easy for the Department for Transport to say it is the Agency's problem and the Agency to say, "Well, it's the DfT's problem." Q247 Mrs Ellman: Do you think the DfT are aware of these problems? Mr Graveson: I do not think they are as aware as they should be, and regrettably it will probably take a serious incident, to which the Chairman has alluded, for additional resources to be made available. Q248 Mrs Ellman: Who do you think should be responsible for making the Department for Transport aware of the lack of resources or other problems? Mr Graveson: I would have thought actually that rests within the MCA. The Maritime and Coastguard Agency is charged with this duty. If it has insufficient resources to do the job, appreciating it is very difficult, the position that they are in, because it can be seen as not managing the resources as effectively or efficiently as they should be, I think actually the MCA should be asking for additional resources from the Department for Transport to discharge its duty which it has been given. Q249 Mrs Ellman: Do you feel that the MCA is identifying the problems and making representations to the Government? Are you aware of that? Mr Graveson: I think there is a lack of strategic thinking, there is a lack of thought to the future, it has been alluded to, yes, the Government has said "Let's look at the helicopter situation." Let us be a little bit more imaginative. Maybe we could use rapid intervention craft which go out beyond a lifeboat range. We do have aircraft available such as the Bell/Boeing V22A Osprey which can go out, these rotate the engines so that they can do vertical hover at long range. That would be an extra facility out into deeper waters where, arguably, a passenger ship or other ships may well require assistance, so it is a question of utilising technology that is not new, it is available and has been there for many years. Q250 Mr Donohoe: Mr Quinn, what is the minimum period that you would have to serve to become a Watch Manager? Mr Quinn: Nowadays, it has happened within three years, there have been people promoted straight through from CWA to Watch Manager in three to four years. In my own opinion, that is too quickly, I would say more like six years. Starting from the bottom, you would need six years to build up the experience base to take on that duty. Q251 Mr Donohoe: Why has that position come about? Mr Quinn: I really do not know. Again, because there is this dwindling pool of experienced people, the MCA has a policy of bringing in people with no skills and they are of the opinion that they can give the people the skills and push them through the system. Mr Clempson: It is what they call competency-based recruitment. Q252 Chairman: I would have thought all recruitment was based on the hope of competency, was it not, even for politicians? Mr Clempson: We would hope so. The fact is that the agreement we reached with the MCA quite some time back about competency-based recruitment was that the competencies would be demonstrated prior to the taking up of the appointment. It is like the recent promotions of three officers with no Search and Rescue background into a Search and Rescue post. It makes life very difficult for the Watch Officer who has to 'phone the senior officer to ask for advice, and that senior officer has got no experience and the Watch Manager has certainly got more experience than the senior officer. It is embarrassing. Q253 Chairman: It is an interesting theory of management? Mr Clempson: What happens is that the Watch Managers will not call that person, they will call somebody else whom they can trust. Q254 Mr Donohoe: Is there a lack of entrants from the voluntary sector? Mr Clempson: The auxiliary coastguards, it is getting more and more difficult to recruit them. It is a very small pool. One of the main problems is the reluctance of employers to release auxiliary coastguards or release staff to become auxiliary coastguards. Unlike the RNLI, unlike the Fire Brigade, the Retained Firemen, the coastguards are what they call a silent service, I would suppose, run silent, run deep, like the old submarines. They do not know about us. "What is a coastguard?" is what people turn round and ask. This is one of the things we need really to get across to the members of the public, that we do actually have a very important role to play, we are a life-saving organisation, and if the employers cannot give our members or auxiliary coastguards the time off then we have got a major problem. Q255 Mr Donohoe: Are we getting to the point then where, actually to be able to supply or to maintain the statutory obligations in an international sense, we will have to consider employing more people rather than relying on volunteers? Mr Clempson: The way life goes at the moment, there are more and more leisure activities, there are more and more people out at sea or on the beaches, and yet the Coastguard Service has always been one of contraction. I think there is talk now about going down to six coastguard stations; this is what we have heard through the grapevine. Q256 Chairman: Mind you, if the people in charge do not know anything about Search and Rescue you would not be more badly off necessarily? Mr Clempson: I totally agree with you. Q257 Mr Donohoe: Are we getting near to the point where, because of this situation, life is being lost as a consequence? Mr Clempson: I think probably life is being put at risk. I do not know whether life is being lost because I do not have access to the files. Probably you would have to ask the Chief Executive or the Chief Coastguard that one. For myself, I do know that there is a lot of concern out there that at times you have a long, long wait to get a rescue team on scene. The MCA, by the use of their statistics, if they get a team on scene, two people who cannot do a proper, say, cliff rescue, it is counted as being on scene, meeting the target, but until you get the whole-team back-up, the rest of the team on there, you cannot do the work. Q258 Chairman: We need a few facts here. How often would that happen? Mr Clempson: I do not know. Mr Quinn: I would say, in any given period of time, the problems we have with getting the auxiliaries out, at this moment in time, are not necessarily because we do not have sufficient numbers, it is actually being able to get them in the right place at the right time. I would say, certainly in my experience up in the north of Scotland, most times we need an auxiliary team to be called out we are having to call out two or three teams in order that we can get enough people to do the work we need to do. I would say that is most times, these days. Q259 Mr Donohoe: Is that partly because of the lack of training? Is the lack of training a problem? Mr Quinn: The training the auxiliaries get is very, very good. The only comment I would make about that is that they are asked to train in their own time and the number of hours allocated by the MCA for training auxiliaries is very, very low. They could do with more of the training, certainly, but the training they get is very good. The reason we cannot get them at the right place at the right time, certainly in my experience, is just because of how diverse they are geographically; the team is based in a small village but most people in that small village will commute to the nearest town to work. These are the problems we are having to overcome. Also, the fact that we have just been issued with a new paging system, since BT stopped the paging, and up in my part of the world we have a lot of blank areas where the pagers just do not work, so we are having to revert to telephoning individuals to try to get them to respond. It is not a lack of training, it is just not having the people in the right place at the right time. Q260 Chairman: Could you give us some indication of how often that has happened, for example, the business with the paging, over a year? Mr Quinn: At this moment in time, since we have gone onto Vodaphone pagers, in the part of our district that was formerly Pentland Coastguard, before that was closed, every time we page an auxiliary team we do not know if the pagers are going to activate or not so we are having to telephone around as well. I believe the MCA is looking at this and trying to find a resolution to this problem but, at this moment in time, whenever we need those auxiliary teams we page them and we telephone. Q261 Chairman: You are saying that you are paging not just one team, you are paging two or three? Mr Quinn: Yes, quite often. Q262 Chairman: Does that not have an effect upon the willingness of people to turn out? Mr Quinn: It has a detrimental effect on them, yes, because what happens is, if we set off the pagers and ten per cent, 20 per cent activate and the others do not and they get to hear about this incident some time later on, well, of course, they are all volunteers, they all want to be there, they all want to take part, and they do become quite disillusioned that they were never told of this incident. Q263 Miss McIntosh: Mr Linington, you painted a fairly bleak picture of the Search and Rescue cover in this country. There are other maritime countries elsewhere in Europe, both Denmark and Norway spring to mind, where probably they have got proportionately more coast but lots of cruise and passenger ships as well. How do they cope? Mr Linington: Looking at this, we looked mainly at the United States, who have got very good statistics in terms of what they are doing. Certainly one of their strategy objectives currently is looking very, very carefully at the implications of passenger ships getting bigger and bigger. They are saying that this is a big focus, currently. They had a big incident in 1980 of fire on board a ship called The Prinsendam, where 524 passengers and crew had to be evacuated, which is a fraction of the numbers of some of the ships which operate around us. They have recognised the challenges there. Also, they are looking in the post 9/11 context as well with security implications. I think, certainly, of all the places that we looked, in terms of trying to compare, the United States has got the best examples of proactive action. I think Allan also has something to add on this. Mr Graveson: I think we have got to look at what levels of service we are providing here in response, with respect to both helicopters and the Coastguard. I have in front of me here a document entitled Implementation of New Service Standards. It is a consultation issued on 1 February 2005 by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency. It tends to show, shall we say, a lack of trying to improve things. I will give you one example. "For Coastguard helicopters to be ready to proceed within 15 minutes of notification to scramble by day, and within 35 minutes of notification to scramble at night..." That is 35 minutes just to getting off the ground. Appreciating that they are saying, it is actually saying here, it is an "Unnecessary measure" because it is built into the contractual arrangements, so be it. The reality is that these times are far, far too long. When we are looking at the Coastguard coming and giving support on the coast, it says here: "For the Coastguard to arrive on the scene of an incident within 30 minutes of a response unit being activated in 80% of the cases. Whilst this is challenging," 80 per cent, that is challenging, "the main reason for not meeting it are outside our control (weather, geography, traffic, quality of information available). This is monitored in the Annual Report." Therefore "No change". I would say it is within their control. They should have more resources available. Q264 Chairman: Can we have a copy of that before you go? Mr Graveson: Indeed, Madam Chairman, yes. Q265 Miss McIntosh: Can I put the same question to PCS and, Mr Radiven, have you looked at the European maritime nations, how they cope? Mr Radiven: We have not looked at it in detail, to be honest. Mr Quinn: One thing I would like to say is, in trying to be fair and even-handed in this, the UK HM Coastguard is not different from a lot of other Coastguards, inasmuch as we co‑ordinate an incident as it is ongoing, as opposed to just being a tasking centre for sending assets out. I would just like that to be borne in mind in any deliberations that come afterwards. Q266 Chairman: Your co‑ordination would not affect the time it takes to get helicopters up in a particular incident and it would not affect, for example, whether or not the RNLI decide to launch? Mr Quinn: No. Q267 Chairman: Both of those timing incidents would be within the hands of the people concerned, not you? Mr Quinn: That is correct, yes. The standards laid down for when assets will task are actually with the RNLI, with the MCA, it is not with the people in the operations rooms, no. Chairman: No, I understand that. Q268 Miss McIntosh: If there is an incident in the Channel Tunnel, what co‑ordination is there with the French and Belgian authorities? Mr Quinn: In the English Channel, the Maritime Rescue Co‑ordination in Dover work very, very closely with their French counterparts. They do have very, very good cross-Channel communication. They speak to each other on a daily basis. With regard to co‑ordinating an incident in the Channel, there would not be a problem. Q269 Miss McIntosh: Are the French and Belgians just as heavily dependent upon volunteers? Do they have an RNLI equivalent there, do you know? Mr Quinn: I do not know really. I know the Dutch have an RNLI equivalent, which is volunteer-manned. I do know that because we get them visiting our station, but with regard to France and Belgium, really I could not say. Q270 Chairman: With the new technology, is it not the case that, albeit there have been coastguard stations which have closed down, actually now, with the speed and efficiency of either a vessel or a helicopter, there is a chance that the rescue vessel or helicopter will reach them more quickly? Mr Quinn: Absolutely, yes. Q271 Chairman: Is the Vision system working efficiently? Mr Quinn: When it works, it works efficiently. Q272 Chairman: Ah, Mr Quinn, that is not an answer. How often does it not work? Mr Quinn: It is getting better. It still has its moment when it has failures but it is getting better. Q273 Chairman: Yes. "Operator confidence in the system is low because of longstanding faults and other technical problems such as system lock ups, loss of data and messaging facilities." Is that still the situation? Mr Quinn: That is still ongoing, yes. Q274 Chairman: Is it sensible, Mr Clempson and Mr Quinn, that Coastguard Rescue Co‑ordination Centres should be paired up so that one could cover for another? Mr Clempson: The trouble with that, again, is that it boils down to the local knowledge question. The RNLI, on their premise, came in with a question about local knowledge being essential. They do not have the local knowledge but coastguards do not have either. The MCA try to make arrangements for familiarisation visits from the pairing stations to go round and see the districts, but on some of those districts, you take Shetland and Stornoway, for instance, you have got the Western Isles and the Shetland Isles covering part of the Orkneys as well, there are quite a few thousand miles of coastline there and there are a lot of similar names. The local knowledge that is required is hard to get and it is still a really essential part, as Lord Donaldson said in his report into the closure of the last coastguard stations. The Maritime and Coastguard Agency is what they call a regulatory authority, in other words, if you have got a merchant ship going up and down the coast and its crew are not up to the standard required, the MCA would either detail or impound that ship to stop it from sailing. The Masters of the vessel could actually get fined or sent to prison even. Yet the Coastguard Agency is quite content with allowing staff at Coastguard Rescue Centres to be unqualified and not competent. Q275 Chairman: Is there any evidence to support claims that pairing is a precursor to closing down Rescue Co‑ordination Centres? Mr Clempson: From our experience, yes, it is, because at the moment what has happened at Forth and Aberdeen, they have removed equipment from Forth which will now make it very difficult for Forth to pair with Aberdeen, if not impossible. There has been no consultation with us whatsoever on that one, it has just gone ahead and done it. Q276 Chairman: What timescale are you talking about? Mr Clempson: It has gone ahead and done it, it is now in force. They have taken away the equipment. Mr Quinn: It is ongoing. What is happening, Madam Chairman, is that Forth Coastguard Station by the end of this month effectively will be a satellite station of Aberdeen. A lot of equipment has been taken from Forth and put into Aberdeen, equipment such as the equipment for the recording of calls, all the BT telephone lines for the aerial sites which we use are now routed through Aberdeen and then to Forth. Even the direction-finding equipment, whilst they still have a direction-finding capability at Forth, if they want to change that onto another channel they will have to ask Aberdeen to change the channels for them physically. MRSC Forth, I think the middle of this month is the time when it will be technically complete and then there will be some time after that for staff training, and what have you, but MRSC Forth will be just a satellite of MRCC Aberdeen. Q277 Chairman: Was the argument made that lack of local knowledge would impinge upon the quality of the work that was being done? Mr Quinn: The lack of knowledge question has never gone away. In all our deliberations, that has always been an aspect. In fairness, over the last 18 months to two years, the MCA has been attempting to get staff from both stations, I can speak only from my own experience, staff at one station to visit staff at another station, to try to gain this local knowledge, but what you can do in one day or one afternoon is very, very limited. Q278 Chairman: With a thousand miles of coastline, I would think it would be a little difficult. How can we improve the United Kingdom Search and Rescue services? Mr Clempson: Give it proper funding and resources. Q279 Chairman: Are you assuming that we shall get to the point where volunteers will no longer be able to provide any part of the service? Mr Clempson: Personally, yes, I would love to see that, but I cannot see that happening. Q280 Chairman: Do you think that is going to happen, or you do not think it is going to happen? Mr Clempson: I do not think it will happen because it is so easy for the Government to slide off, using a voluntary charity, or whatever. Q281 Chairman: How do you deal with the problem of the pool of recruits becoming smaller and therefore the assumption being made increasingly that you can take people in who have no maritime experience? Mr Clempson: What we should do is what it said in the (DBR ?) recruitment review in 2001. We should then put them out at sea to give them some sea experience, in other words, go on board a merchant ship, or we should be using Coastguard vessels, like tugs or standby craft and that sort of thing. Q282 Chairman: Have you done any assessment as a union of the number of people being appointed who have no practical maritime experience? Mr Clempson: I think, at the moment, from what we can see, the majority of staff coming in now do not have a maritime background. As we said earlier, they can go elsewhere and get a lot more pay. Q283 Ian Lucas: Do you think that the service has declined in the last ten years? Mr Clempson: Yes. Personally, I think it has. Technically it has got better but the whole quality of service that we try to provide I do not think has got any better and it may have gone down. The morale in the service is very, very low. There was a stress survey done in 2003, I think it was, and we have not even seen the results of it yet. Q284 Chairman: Is it common for the amalgamation and partial closure of a station to go ahead without consultation with the staff? Mr Clempson: I can tell you a few tales about that, but, yes, unfortunately, it seems to happen that we get treated as a union in a not very friendly way at times. The fact is that if they want to go ahead they do it and they close stations down and tell us afterwards. Q285 Chairman: Mr Quinn, being where you are physically, you must have personally some experience, because of the oil platforms, in dealing with the Norwegians? Mr Quinn: Yes, we liaise quite often with our Norwegian counterparts and quite often we have Norwegian fishermen as casualties. Q286 Chairman: Do they have a better system than we do? Mr Quinn: They do not seem to have as many stops put in their way. They seem to have this ability that if they want something they can do it. Q287 Miss McIntosh: Do they rely on volunteers? Mr Quinn: Norway is different from the UK. They have a completely different system. The counterparts that I know, my counterparts in Norway, are like the UK Coastguard, they are full-time employees. The Coastguard in Norway is more akin to a police station, they do all inland Search and Rescue as well. It is not a similar situation. Q288 Chairman: Gentlemen, finally, is there a basic problem with the recruitment of skilled and experienced persons to the system? Mr Quinn: Yes, there is, because there is not the pool of qualified or experienced people to draw on these days. That is just a fact of life. If we recruit the right people, even without this knowledge and skills and experience, we should be able to bring our own people on, get them the training, give them the experience, get them out to sea, we are the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, we should be able to get them out at sea and get some sea experience for them. Then, in time, we can bring them on, rather than rushing them through the system just to fill gaps that cannot be filled, for no other reason, which is happening now. Given time, yes, we can take people on and we can give them the skills and we can get them the experience. Q289 Chairman: Do you think there is a structured programme of closure of more stations on the part of the MCA? Mr Quinn: I have been told there is not. Q290 Chairman: Do you think there is? Mr Quinn: I was in the coastguard station in Peterhead when I first joined, it was known as Moray Coastguard, and the very day the then Chief Coastguard put out his Christmas salutations to everybody, saying that we could look forward to a period of untroubled times, unfurrowed brows, was the expression he used, that very day the press called him and said, "We hear they're closing your station." We were told then that there were no station closures and there were. We are told now that there are no station closures. Mr Clempson: But there are; we know. Chairman: Gentlemen, you have been very helpful. Thank you very much indeed. Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Captain Stephen Bligh, Chief Executive, and Mr John Astbury, Operations Director and Chief Coastguard, Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA), examined. Q291 Chairman: Good afternoon to you, gentlemen. May I welcome you most warmly. I should warn you, I think, that we may be forced to adjourn at about half-past four. Can I ask you to identify yourselves, please? Captain Bligh: Yes, Madam Chairman. Stephen Bligh. Chief Executive, Maritime and Coastguard Agency. Mr Astbury: John Astbury. Chief Coastguard and Director of Operations, Maritime and Coastguard Agency. Q292 Chairman: Thank you. Did either of you have anything you wanted to say? Mr Astbury: Not at this stage, Madam Chairman. Q293 Chairman: Captain Bligh, how effective are the current Search and Rescue structures, particularly the SAR Strategic Committee and the Operators Group? Captain Bligh: The UK Search and Rescue Strategic Committee, as has already been mentioned today, meets twice a year. It is a getting together of all the various bodies to discuss the major issues with regard to Search and Rescue throughout the United Kingdom. Its remit is obviously to take advice forward into the various departments to advise their individual ministers. Its actual control over the Search and Rescue organisations is somewhat limited, but the Operations Group very much looks at the procedures and how things are being delivered on the ground. Q294 Chairman: If the Strategic Committee meets only twice a year, it would not be thought to be a very active Committee, would you think? Captain Bligh: I think in the past possibly it has not been as active as it should have been. There is a meeting scheduled in the next few weeks, at which time the Framework Document is going to be looked at, to review to see the way to move forward. Q295 Chairman: Who is responsible for calling these meetings? It says it is a Strategic Committee. Let me ask you, could our arrangements cope with a so-called Mass Rescue Operation? Captain Bligh: Presently, I think, defining a Mass Rescue Operation, as I say, we have the helicopter assets, which we would utilise, but in a lot of circumstances actually taking the people off a maritime casualty might not be the best course of action in a particular event. We do have within the Maritime and Coastguard Agency the four tugs which we could utilise to take people off. We have the helicopters, both of the Maritime and Coastguard Agency and those of the RN and the RAF. Q296 Chairman: Are you saying, "Yes, we could deal with a Mass Rescue Operation," although we heard earlier on that some ships now have as many as 5,000 passengers? Mr Astbury: The answer is yes because we have had an example of it. A few years ago, we had the French ferry, Brittany Ferries' The Quiberon, in the South West Approaches of the UK and we managed to bring forward 62 helicopters from the south coast, 40 of them were winch-fitted. That is far too many helicopters than we could deal with over a vessel like The Quiberon, which had a fire on board, in the engine-room, but the command and control structure was actually in place. Generally, we deal with bread-and-butter incidents and, as Allan Graveson referred to, they are medium-type incidents, but the major incidents are things which we can cope with because we have the structure on the ground which deals with the day‑to‑day matters. We are looking also at the evacuation of people from ferries. In fact, we are involved in the Northern Periphery INTERREG IIIB programme, as the leader of the project, to look at things like evacuation from cruise liners, because there is a 74 per cent increase in cruise liners visiting the Faroes, for example, so we are actively engaged in that. If I may, if I can come back to the Strategic Committee issue, we agreed last year at the Strategic Committee that the Committee would meet when there were serious strategic issues to debate, rather than just meet for the sake of it. That was agreed by all the representatives on the Group. Q297 Chairman: How would you define that? Given that we have been told that you are finding it more difficult to recruit people with practical maritime experience, given that we are told there are increasing numbers of cases in which you are being called, given that it is very clear that a lot of voluntary organisations we have taken evidence from are finding it difficult to recruit volunteers, how would you define an incident where it was necessary for you to discuss strategy? Mr Astbury: For example, the project is a major UK strategy which currently is being handled at the Operator Group level, but was referred to the Strategic Group and then onwards to ministers for decisions on the way forward, so that is a major strategic issue. Fire-fighting at sea, for example, will be taken forward to the Strategic Group. I am very pleased to say that we have now support funding for the next three years for that project and that will be taken forward to the Strategic Group and then onwards to ministers to endorse that funding. Q298 Chairman: How many times have they met in the last year? Mr Astbury: They met last year once, I believe; not this year. As Captain Bligh says, there is a meeting coming up. Q299 Ian Lucas: Who calls the meeting? Captain Bligh: The Chair of the Strategic Committee is the Department for Transport. They are the Chair and Secretariat. Q300 Clive Efford: We have just been told that no coastguard station has been properly staffed all through the last year. Is that true? Captain Bligh: The figures which I have presented to me do not bear that out. As of this very moment, we have vacancies within the Agency, we have three Watch Managers and 11 Watch Officers, one Sector Manager vacancy and one District Operations Manager. They are the only vacancies that we have as of today. We have presently just completed a training course where 16 CWAs have gone through the Watch Officer course, 13 of those have passed so they will be filling those Watch Officer vacancies shortly. We have another course just starting for CWAs, for training, where ten will be trained in the coming months, March and so on. Q301 Clive Efford: What is being implied is that it is a lowly-paid job and therefore that recruitment and retention are very difficult. Is that your experience? Captain Bligh: Figures for recruitment and retention in fact at the moment are showing that we have the lowest amount of vacancies that we have ever had, it is less than two per cent across the whole of the organisation. That is not just the Search and Rescue side of things. There is a smaller pool that we are fishing in. As has been mentioned already, people who have had a maritime career, there are fewer and fewer people within the United Kingdom, and therefore fishing in that pool is becoming more difficult. Q302 Clive Efford: The practice of having unqualified or inexperienced staff managing a watch is not commonplace? Captain Bligh: To the best of my knowledge, no, it is not. I do not know if Mr Astbury has a view. Mr Astbury: I think the PCS probably overstated that somewhat. I have no knowledge of the sort of statement which was made, that over the year every coastguard station at some point was staffed by unqualified people. If that was the case then why did they not tell me, if they thought that? That is not the evidence we are getting from our local managers. As Captain Bligh says, we have no evidence to support that. I am quite happy to take it from the PCS. If they have evidence, let us see it and we will look into it. Q303 Clive Efford: Does it matter that the Coastguard do not have control over resources operated by voluntary organisations, for example, the launch of a lifeboat? Mr Astbury: I think there is a misconception there somewhat. Once the asset is launched it does come under the co‑ordination of the Coastguard. It is only when the asset is dormant that it comes under the control of the relevant authority, with its policies and so on. That is why the Operators Group has gone to great lengths over the last three years to try to get consistent and common policies amongst the diverse range of resources so that when we do operate together we are operating to known standards. That is when the benefit is, as you heard Mr Vlasto refer to, of the Operators Group. Q304 Clive Efford: You would say that the current situation is satisfactory and that there is no problem between the two organisations? Mr Astbury: Not in terms of maritime Search and Rescue. What I would say is that there is a definite need for improvement across the whole range of UK SAR plc. There needs to be more collaboration between all the emergency services, because at the moment we do not have that. That is what the Operators Group are striving to achieve and we have had some successes, as I mentioned to Madam Chairman, the fire-fighting at sea project and, of course, the harmonisation of helicopters. They have been tremendous, real successes because of bringing together different government departments previously so diverse, different, and I think that has worked very well. There is a lot more to do. Q305 Clive Efford: You have mentioned that. Is there a problem with pulling together different services when using helicopters? Mr Astbury: There is not on the ground. Traditionally, because of the way the UK is formed, with its emergency services - Fire, Police, Ambulance and, of course, Coastguard - people have operated in silos because of the way they have done it. With events like Carlisle and Boscastle and, of course, the events we have seen in South East Asia, people are starting to take notice that perhaps we ought to work more closely and get greater synergy and greater value for money and a better service to the public as a result of working closely together rather than separately. Q306 Clive Efford: You would say that was happening, or is there something that you are saying should be done or someone who should be put in place to make that happen? Mr Astbury: It is starting to happen and I think more needs to be done to make it happen. I am pleased to say that this review into Search and Rescue I believe has already helped a great deal. Q307 Clive Efford: The MCA is going to be taking responsibility for the Lake District from 1 April. How do you intend to cover that area? Mr Astbury: We have placed new relay antennas around the area, so we have got adequate communications, and we have put in place a Coastguard Rescue Team. Q308 Clive Efford: Are they employees of the MCA or will they be auxiliaries? Mr Astbury: They are volunteers. Captain Bligh: I think it is useful to point out that it is volunteers, and when we were looking for new volunteers to set up that system we had an oversubscription of people who wished to volunteer to become part of the auxiliary service in that area. Q309 Miss McIntosh: You provided a very useful comparative table in your submission. I notice, if I am reading it correctly, that it does not say a great deal about the volunteers, though you do refer to the number of volunteers in this country. What co‑ordination is there with the volunteer Search and Rescue teams in this country in preparation for a general rather than a mass Search and Rescue operation that you are involved in? Captain Bligh: If we are talking about the Auxiliary Coastguard Service where presently we have 3,500 volunteers, they are the people who deliver the coastal rescue as opposed to the waterborne rescue, which actually is delivered by the RNLI. We have 400 sites or Rescue Centres around the country from where the 3,500 volunteers operate. They are all supplied with a four-by-four vehicle and the teams have all their various equipment. Similar to many organisations, recruitment is always an issue in some areas, where changes in work patterns and social conditions mean that people are not necessarily working in their local communities, they are travelling a further distance, particularly, for instance, in the Southend area, where people are commuting into London and then, when they are coming home of an evening, are reluctant to volunteer, but we are still managing to fill our vacancies across the country. Q310 Miss McIntosh: Are we more heavily dependent than or as heavily dependent as other European countries, or indeed America or Australia, on volunteers? Captain Bligh: In many areas, the Coastal Rescue Service that we operate actually is operated by the police forces in some of the other countries that you mention. They are not part of the Coastguard's remit. They will deliver only the maritime aspect. Q311 Miss McIntosh: I notice that one of NUMAST's conclusions is that to have a provision of statutory recognition for voluntary work within the UK Search and Rescue Agency should be considered. What would be the implications for your organisation if that were proposed? Captain Bligh: The large percentage of our volunteers volunteer out of a community spirit and a desire to contribute something. Very few of them would wish to be burdened by what they would see as some form of bureaucracy and system which basically managed them into a particular area where they did not want to go. We would be concerned that, if some of these areas moved forward, a large percentage of our volunteer force might well decide that they did not wish to continue in that particular area. Q312 Miss McIntosh: That would be in addition to the fact, as the Chairman pointed out, that probably fewer volunteers are coming forward generally? Captain Bligh: Yes. Q313 Miss McIntosh: I was a Member of the European Parliament for Southend and Harwich and I know that they regularly used to have incident training because they asked me to be sort of the VIP who caused all the problems on the ferry, which I declined. Frankly, I am quite staggered by what you said earlier, Captain Bligh, that you feel there is not sufficient co‑ordination and perhaps coming together of minds and rehearsals. Is there not something annually? Captain Bligh: There is a national exercise for maritime Search and Rescue and oil pollution, we carry out national exercises. I think there is a difference between the sort of exercise which is interfacing with the landside Search and Rescue organisations and the maritime. We do carry out exercises. An exercise was carried out in the not too distant past. For instance, a large oil tanker or chemical tanker in the Solent and the impact that would have on the surrounding areas and the police were involved in that particular incident with regard to evacuation should anything happen. Mr Astbury: Perhaps I could add to that, Madam Chairman. Prior to the formation of the current structure, the UK SAR in the UK, there was no committee which represented inland Search and Rescue. Together with the Department, when we formed the new UK SAR structure, we expressly put in there that it would represent sea and land, and that is what the Strategic Committee and the Operators Group now represent. Hence, the landside of collaboration is a little behind the maritime side. Q314 Chairman: Can I just ask, I am not clear, are you saying that the MCA and the RNLI co‑ordination is good but the Police, the Mountain Rescue and now SAR are not so good? Mr Astbury: No. I am not saying that, Madam Chairman, at all. I am saying that, on the procedural side of things, the command and control and the way that the services inter-operate need to be more consistent. At the moment, for example, the Coastguard in Carlisle, when we were dealing there, we dealt with communications in our way, where the Police were dealing with the communications in their own way, and so were the Fire Service and the Ambulance Service. What we need to have is a UK SAR plc co‑ordinated communications plan and we have not actually got that at the moment. Q315 Chairman: Are all your communications actually working? Mr Astbury: Yes. In fact, in Carlisle, Coastguard communications were the only communications working. Q316 Chairman: You do not think that there are certain stations where there are problems with communication, with pagers that do not work? Mr Astbury: I was surprised to hear that. Q317 Chairman: Surprised? Mr Astbury: Yes. We have no evidence of that. Q318 Chairman: No evidence? Mr Astbury: No. O2 dropped out of the paging service overnight, literally, and left all services which were reliant on pagers with a problem, but our Technical Services Division solved that problem and no auxiliary team has reported to us to say that they have failed to be called out because of paging problems. Q319 Chairman: So it is not true that there have been occasions when two or three teams have been called because that was the only way it could happen? Mr Astbury: No. I think there is a misconception there. Two or three teams are called because they train together to provide a local service. Q320 Chairman: No, but in this particular instance you are quite confident that all of the paging systems operate and there has not been an occasion when teams have said that they have not picked up the signal? Mr Astbury: Right now, yes. During the changeover from O2 to the new paging system there may have been some glitches because we were left in the lurch. Q321 Chairman: But you do not know about them? Mr Astbury: No. Again, if the PCS have evidence... Q322 Chairman: Under normal circumstances, Mr Astbury, as the Chief Coastguard, if there were a problem in a particular station, on any occasion, even were it only once, would you not think that information would trickle through to you at some point? Mr Astbury: Yes, I would. Q323 Chairman: Really you are saying that this has not happened? Mr Astbury: I am saying that, when we moved over from O2 to the new system, clearly there were areas which were not covered adequately which needed contingency arrangements, but now that has been solved. Q324 Chairman: There were occasions when it happened but they are not happening now? Mr Astbury: During the transition. The call-out of two or three teams is a different issue. Chairman: We will come to that in a minute. Q325 Miss McIntosh: Could I ask what role the weather plays both in what sort of Search and Rescue you mount but also do you believe that in this country sufficient weather forecasts are given to prevent perhaps someone going out on leisure activities, yachting or other craft, that might get themselves into difficulties? If they were more aware of the weather then perhaps they would not go out? Captain Bligh: At the moment, the Maritime and Coastguard Agency funds, through the Met. Office, the shipping forecast, which basically we retransmit with the information we get from the Met. Office. There is quite often a debate about whether more detailed, local weather would be beneficial to the local yachting community. It is available in many circumstances on Internet-based systems and other readily available systems in their own area. The value of whether we should transmit this, or retransmit it, on a continuous broadcast is something that we have looked at and it depends really on the availability of radio frequencies, to be able to have a dedicated channel with this running on a spool, but it is something which has been looked at. Q326 Miss McIntosh: Have there been incidents where perhaps weather was a factor? Captain Bligh: I think quite often there are incidents where the weather is a factor, where people put to sea in inappropriate conditions and then find that they do not have the resources or the time to make it back to their original base. Q327 Ian Lucas: Mr Astbury, do you meet with the trade unions? Mr Astbury: Yes. I meet regularly with the trade unions. Q328 Ian Lucas: Have you discussed staffing at coastal stations with them? Mr Astbury: Last year, I offered the National Negotiating Officer of the PCS the opportunity to draft their own paper on staffing complements for watch-keeping in the Agency. Unfortunately, because of a change of National Negotiating Officer, this was not possible and we felt it unfair to ask Nick Radiven to do the same because he has been in the job for only a few weeks, so I offered to take it on. In November last year I commissioned papers from each of the three Regional Operations Managers, giving them instructions to consult at all levels, including their local PCS representatives, and to come up with a sort of strategy for what they would see would be their requirements in the future, given future constraints, like Working Time Directives, and so on. I have now got those papers, I have got a consolidated document and I am about to call a meeting of the senior managers involved with that, together with the PCS. Q329 Ian Lucas: Earlier on, when my colleague raised this issue, you said something, and I paraphrase you, along the lines of "I'm surprised I haven't heard this from my local managers." You did not say "I'm surprised I didn't hear that from the unions"? Mr Astbury: We would expect to get information from the unions. In fact, we have had correspondence on this on a weekly basis, and we meet very regularly. I meet personally with the trade unions. I have met them twice already this year and we have got another meeting next Monday. Q330 Ian Lucas: Do you think that it would be useful to meet with them to discuss the staffing, their suggestion? Mr Astbury: Absolutely, and that is fully what we intend to do, but unfortunately there was a delay because Graham left and Nick came in so we had a delay on that. Q331 Ian Lucas: Do you think there is a need to establish a series of staffed watch stations on the coast, as the National Coastwatch Institution are trying to establish? Do you think there is a need for that? Mr Astbury: Lookouts? Q332 Ian Lucas: Yes. Mr Astbury: No. I do not believe there is a need at all. We ceased it in 1978, for good reason. We discovered that nearly 99 per cent of the calls we got, either through 999 calls or wherever, came from members of the public, and even the one per cent we got from coastguard stations also were reported by the public and that still remains the case today. Q333 Ian Lucas: Do you think that the National Coastwatch Institution is wasting its time? Mr Astbury: No. I do not think it is wasting its time. Q334 Ian Lucas: You said there is no need for them? Mr Astbury: I do not believe there is any need for them and that was why we ceased our own visual watch. Q335 Ian Lucas: What purpose do you think they have, if you do not think there is any need for them? Mr Astbury: They are, if you like, a fixed watch of members of the public. That is how we view them and, we hope, train them so they know what they are looking for, because if they are going to sit in a look-out looking out to sea then we believe they should do it properly and know what they are looking for and know how to report it to us. Q336 Ian Lucas: Do you agree with the National Coastwatch Institution's description of relations with your Agency as "cooling" at the top level? Mr Astbury: No, not at all. Captain Bligh: I would disagree with that totally. I may say, we have met with them, we have spoken with them on numerous occasions, in fact they have had a meeting with the Minister himself and they put forward their case. In fact, I received a letter from them yesterday in which they thanked us for the help and assistance we had given them over a particularly difficult issue which we helped them to resolve. I do not believe that there is a problem. There is a debate over two particular stations where they would like to have access and we have refused them access to those particular sites. That is because they are areas where we have radio and aerial equipment, they are secure sites, it is where our AIS receivers will be in the future, therefore we feel that the security of those sites is such that we cannot allow them access to them. Q337 Ian Lucas: You cannot reach some form of compromise about access on those? Captain Bligh: No, because their request would mean that we would have to issue considerable numbers of keys, so the security of those sites we would be concerned about. The major factor is under the Health and Safety Regulations; there is a lot of high-voltage electrical equipment in them which takes up the vast majority of the site. There is not actually a working space, other than a working space around the equipment for maintenance, there is not a working space where somebody could actually sit up and keep a visual look-out. Mr Astbury: We commissioned a feasibility study to look at it and, incidentally, we have assisted them in coming into 15 of our sites. They only have 32 stations and nearly half of them, one recently in Newhaven, where we do have communications equipment in there, we conducted a feasibility study and found that it was possible. Wherever it is possible to help them we will. I think the issue really is over these two stations. Q338 Mrs Ellman: Captain Bligh, have you made any representations to Government asking for more resources? Captain Bligh: In recent times, we have had representation and we have been talking about various projects. Q339 Mrs Ellman: No. Have you asked the Government for more resources? Captain Bligh: No. Q340 Mrs Ellman: Is that because you are satisfied with what you have got? Captain Bligh: Any chief executive of an agency would always like more money and no doubt I would be able to spend it on various things across the Agency, but, at the moment, with what we are asked to deliver, we have those resources. Q341 Mrs Ellman: You do not see it in your role to ask for more, you are satisfied you can do everything you need to do? Captain Bligh: When the Spending Reviews come forward we put forward our proposals. In the Treasury's SR04, we put forward our views of the money we thought was necessary to develop some areas. Then we receive our allocation and manage that accordingly. Q342 Mrs Ellman: Have you made any assessment of how many more people who will be involved in high-risk activities will require assistance? Captain Bligh: At the moment, there is anecdotal evidence that everybody says there are more people involved in leisure pursuits, there are more people involved in the high-risk activities. We have a study underway, where we are doing an omnibus survey, and that data will be ready in April/May time. Early indications are that about 11.5 million take part in maritime leisure activities. We need now to break that down into what those individual activities are, because we are taking the whole spectrum of our coastal interface, so that is everything from cliff-walking to jet-skiing, and then we need to break that down into the individual components. What it will not give us is the frequency, because if you are looking at the frequency of this activity we have done research through tourist board websites and other information to try to get this, and they talk about figures ranging between 35 million and 45 million people taking part in activities in the coastal community. What we are trying to do at the moment is identify the activities and then the average number of people and maybe tackle frequency at a later date. Q343 Mrs Ellman: Do you intend to close any more Rescue Co‑ordination Centres? Captain Bligh: No. This is an old chestnut. Q344 Mrs Ellman: Why are you pairing? Captain Bligh: What we are trying to do is prove technology, that we have the facility. What we are trying to do is ensure that, as we have talked about before, some stations can assist their flank station in a major incident and what we need to do is prove that technology will work. The trial which is going on between Aberdeen and Forth, again, I am surprised, because it was discussed with the PCS, they were involved in the discussion about that particular trial, and it is a trial, it is no more and no less than that at the moment, and we are trying whether the system will work. Q345 Mrs Ellman: Does that mean you are ruling out more closures? Captain Bligh: Yes. Mr Astbury: Actually, the benefit of pairing is to release resources for prevention activity. At the moment, most of the Coastguard resources are locked into Co‑ordination Centres, providing a cure. If we had partnerships then it would be possible, through that technology, to release resources to go on the ground to carry out more prevention. It is not a closure of a centre, it is the utilisation of centres to release resources so we are benefiting from the technology to stop people being locked into one particular type of silo. It comes back to Captain Bligh's point about resources. The question is, how we can best use the resources, first, before we go asking for more, and technology I think could help in that way. Q346 Mrs Ellman: What is the most important recommendation you would make about the future of Search and Rescue services? Captain Bligh: At the moment, the major item on the horizon is the helicopter harmonisation project. The Maritime Rescue from the RNLI, that area of our service, is second to none and we receive an excellent service from that. Obviously, it has been mentioned, the airframes which presently are used for Search and Rescue are coming towards the end of their operational life. We need to move forward with that project so that we are not left in a position of trying to keep old airframes going, once they have gone beyond their operational life, while we are still trying to nail the decision on what the future of the helicopter rescue service around the UK looks like. Q347 Mrs Ellman: Do you have any thoughts on the future structure of the service? Captain Bligh: I think the present structure that we have is more than adequate. I do not believe we are talking about changes in structure of the organisation. As I say, the auxiliary service delivers what we need of it at the moment. Our helicopters are a critical part of our delivery and we need to manage that area of the business. For the rest of it, we are where we are at the moment. Mrs Ellman: Thank you. Q348 Clive Efford: On the Forth Rescue Centre, if there is an emergency, say, a fire or something, and one centre is taken out and the other is not there any more, are you confident that you have got cover in those circumstances? Mr Astbury: Yes. Frankly, we have got belt and braces and belt and braces in our organisation, which is why we were able to conduct the communications in Carlisle when the police airwave system collapsed. We have a network of 131 remote radio sites. Q349 Chairman: They have not always worked very well, have they, Mr Astbury? Mr Astbury: Yes, they have. Q350 Chairman: You think your Vision system is working perfectly well, do you not? Mr Astbury: The radio is one issue. The Vision is the replacement for the paperwork in the ops room. Q351 Chairman: Yes, but you have got both these systems operating. You are quite happy about radio and Vision and the other systems all working? Mr Astbury: The maintenance down-time of our radio system last year, in 2004, was less than five days, which is 99.92 per cent efficiency; so, yes, I am extremely happy with the communications infrastructure. Chairman: Saved by the bell, I think, Mr Astbury. Thank you both very much for your evidence and for your attendance here today. The Committee is suspended for a division in the House. The Committee suspended from 4.41 pm to 4.51 pm for a division in the House.
Witnesses: Mr David Jamieson, a Member of the House, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport; Phil Hope, a Member of the House, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister; and Fiona Mactaggart, a Member of the House, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office; examined. Q352 Chairman: Ministers, in the collective sense, we are very grateful to you for coming this afternoon. Perhaps I could just place on record my appreciation of the fact that Mr Hope has had a rather fraught day and we are grateful to him for his rapid appearance. I hope you will have time to draw breath. I would like to say that I understand Mr Jamieson has announced that he is not intending to fight the next general election. This comes as a very great surprise and is a source of unhappiness to this Committee. We shall miss him very, very much. Mr Jamieson: Mrs Dunwoody, you are so very, very kind. Q353 Chairman: Could I ask you, firstly, to identify yourselves, for the record, and then, I understand, Mr Jamieson, there are one or two things you would like to say? Mr Jamieson: Mrs Dunwoody, I am David Jamieson, Parliamentary Under-Secretary for the Department for Transport. Fiona Mactaggart: I am Fiona Mactaggart, Parliamentary Under-Secretary at the Department of the Home Office. Phil Hope: Phil Hope, Parliamentary Under-Secretary at the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister. Q354 Chairman: Mr Jamieson? Mr Jamieson: Mrs Dunwoody, you are perfectly correct, as always, in saying that I am not standing at the next election. I have appeared before this Committee, I think, in excess of 20 times and I have always appreciated your very searching questions but I have also fully appreciated your courtesy, that of you and the members of the Committee, and I am sure today will be yet another example of that. I am pleased to have the opportunity to come today with my two colleagues, from the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and the Home Office, to discuss this very important issue of Search and Rescue because it is an area where I think we are very successful in this country and I am deeply proud of the work that we do. If I could use this occasion just to place something on record. There have been two serious incidents recently, one at Boscastle, not far away from the constituency you used to represent, Mrs Dunwoody, and I represent still until the next election, and also at Carlisle, where in both cases the work of the Search and Rescue was truly exemplary. In Boscastle, I think we all saw the scenes of the water rushing down the street, and the fact that actually nobody lost their life there I think is nothing short of a miracle and is a testament to the courage, the determination and the sheer professionalism of the people who were involved, both those who are auxiliaries, because originally this was reported by an auxiliary, and the professionals, which I think has been quite astonishing. In Carlisle, a similar experience with floods, when the police communications were flooded out, and in fact it was the Liverpool Maritime Rescue Co‑ordination Centre which initially co‑ordinated the work in Carlisle and, there again, great loss of life was prevented. I think I would like just to put on the record, and I invite the Committee to as well, that I am deeply proud of those people both at a professional level and those who operate on a voluntary basis throughout the whole of the service, both at sea and on land, those people who daily risk their lives in the very noble pursuit of saving the lives of others. Q355 Chairman: That is a very pleasing tribute, Minister, and, as you will understand, this Committee is second to none in its admiration of the emergency services. It is precisely because we wish to maintain that high level of care and professionalism that this Committee has chosen yet again to investigate the situation. I am sure you will understand that it is the provision of professional services which makes it possible to save lives and the dedication of the individuals has never at any point been doubted, either by any member of this Committee or, I think, by any elected Member of the Parliament. That does not mean, however, that we assume that everything they do is perfect or that all of their equipment and their organisation never needs to be looked at closely. Although certainly we are delighted to pay tribute in both of the incidents that you mention, nevertheless, there are still some questions which need to be asked. Does anybody really know who is in charge, or are there too many departments and organisations involved? Mr Jamieson: Mrs Dunwoody, up until the late nineties, I think there was some doubt about this and my department took the initiative at that time to bring together the various departments and the other organisations which have an interest in Search and Rescue both at sea and on land, and my department has taken over an umbrella responsibility for co‑ordinating the activity through the Strategic Committee. We chair the Strategic Committee. Beneath that is the Operators Group, which has a wide range of interests on it, and that also has the sub-groups which look at more of the detailed operation. I think it would be an exaggeration to say that we are in charge of it but certainly we have taken the responsibility for overseeing the strategic operation of Search and Rescue. Q356 Chairman: How often did that Committee meet last year? Mr Jamieson: The Strategic Committee met once last year. As it is dealing with strategy, of course, strategy does not need to be reviewed very often, if any of the parties on the Strategic Committee wanted that Committee to meet, if they felt there was some strategic issue which needed to be addressed, they could call a meeting and, of course, we would convene it. Q357 Chairman: I understood that your department had responsibility for calling the meetings? Mr Jamieson: We call the meeting, but if any of the partners, which include the Home Office and many of the other operators, wanted a meeting and they felt there was an issue which was important we would then convene a meeting. The Operators Group meets every two to three months, of course this is much more to do with the operation, and the sub-groups meet even more often. They are more important, in that sense, in that they are dealing with the operational issues day to day. If the Operators Group brings any issues which they think are of strategic importance and need the involvement of ministers to co‑ordinate between themselves then they can bring that to the attention of my department and we will convene a meeting. Q358 Chairman: Do you think it is a satisfactory situation when the UK's Search and Rescue helicopters are provided by three different organisations? Mr Jamieson: No, I do not. I think the strength of the system is that it is diverse and there are various partners operating. The Maritime and Coastguard Agency have four places where we have helicopters, a total of eight helicopters, which are dedicated to that service, but the military also provide Search and Rescue for their own purposes which they use for civilian purposes also. Q359 Chairman: They would not pretend that the siting of their stations was for anything other than military need, for military convenience, rather than for any public interest? Mr Jamieson: It is not directly military needs but it is the needs of the military for Search and Rescue, which of course will be very similar to Search and Rescue as needed for civilian purposes. As I am sure you know, currently we are looking at the arrangements for the provision of helicopters, the project, which will bring the two services together, probably by about 2012 and we will have one set of operators working for the Maritime and Coastguard Agency and for the military. Q360 Chairman: For example, take the north of Scotland. There is already a very strong Search and Rescue need, but that is going to develop, is it not, and there is going to be much more offshore oil and many more gas projects? Mr Jamieson: Yes, indeed. Q361 Chairman: Would you not think your timetable was a little leisurely? Mr Jamieson: Not at all, because the provision we have at the moment is a very good provision. The way it is operated, in the two examples I gave the operation of it was exemplary, and I see them operating. Of course, they tend to be busiest in the part of the country that I represent, it is one of the busiest parts of the coast, and we see them working very, very well together, in good harmony and very effectively. Q362 Chairman: Do you think you are wise to rely quite so heavily on volunteers for emergency Search and Rescue services? Mr Jamieson: I think the volunteers, certainly the auxiliary coastguards, of whom there are 3,500, are highly-trained people who give enormous service to the local communities and to the country. Very often, they are people with excellent knowledge of the local coastline, they are people whose families sometimes have had generations living in the community and they know the tides, they know the beaches, they know the cliffs, these are people who voluntarily give a lot of help and assistance to the professionals. I think they are excellent. The RNLI, of course, again, are exemplary in the work that they do, again a totally non-professional organisation but people with the very highest skills and enormous dedication and bravery. Q363 Chairman: You do not think it is true that they are finding it increasingly difficult to get volunteers? Mr Jamieson: I think that is true. There are difficulties now, especially in this country, with so many people employed, with such a successful economy that we have, there are difficulties getting people. All of the voluntary organisations, not just in this area but across other areas as well, are having that difficulty. Q364 Chairman: Even though they are exemplary, they are becoming fewer in number and you are relying very heavily upon them? Mr Jamieson: We rely very heavily upon them, but currently we are reviewing certainly the auxiliary coastguards to promote them, to promote the activity and to make sure we get the number of recruits that we want. At the moment, we do not have a shortage. We always have some vacancies but we do not have a shortage. Q365 Chairman: You think that auxiliary coastguards should be promoted, rather than that you should deal with the problem of whether or not you have got the structure right? Mr Jamieson: I think the structure is right. What we want to make sure of is that we keep sufficient numbers of people to do the job and fill the vacancies there are around the coast. Q366 Chairman: Now we come to you, Madam. What is the Government doing to encourage volunteering? Fiona Mactaggart: This is the Year of the Volunteer. Q367 Chairman: Yes, we have been informed of that. Fiona Mactaggart: It is a very important opportunity to increase volunteer recruitment and to increase the investment in assisting organisations to manage volunteers, because at times that has been a struggle for a number of organisations, including the ones which are involved in Search and Rescue. There has been progress on volunteer recruitment. The Home Office Citizenship Survey shows that formal volunteering, this sort of volunteering, increased from 39 per cent of the population in 2001 to 42 per cent in 2003. We are in touch with the organisations involved and, in large part, not in every area, there are more would-be volunteers than there are places for them. There are, of course, specific areas where there is a challenge, remote rural areas where there is an elderly population, areas where it is difficult to get buy‑in from employers to release employees to voluntary situations. Q368 Chairman: Is not that increasingly the case? Fiona Mactaggart: That is a situation, in particular, that latter one, that we are seeking to tackle through the Corporate Challenge, which is a partnership between business and Government, trying to ensure that, for example, when businesses are trying to score on corporate social responsibility, and so on, their willingness to release people is one of the things which is recognised, also working with business in the community on small companies. Very often, I think, in these rural areas, it is very small companies, the person who is the employee is keeping the shop open, or something, it is not a company which has maybe 100 people doing the same job, it is a company which has one person doing one job, so trying to work with them to get them proper rewards for their goodwill, as a business, contributing in this way. Q369 Chairman: Monetary rewards? Fiona Mactaggart: We are not considering at present monetary rewards. Q370 Chairman: What sorts of rewards would they get then except credit in heaven? Fiona Mactaggart: Public recognition, ways of scoring the good value that they contribute in their goodwill, which is a marketable commodity in many of these businesses, particularly in, for example, the leisure and tourism industry, and so on, which are very relevant here, so getting that kind of recognition. Also, of course, we are looking at what kinds of contributions can count towards tax breaks in donations. Our big investment in tax breaks is to encourage charitable giving and that is basically charitable giving of money. That is one of the things which can be considered. Q371 Chairman: Minister, these are tough problems, you know. They are not going to be dealt with by kind of nice, soft, gentle suggestions, are they; if we do not have enough volunteers for the emergency services, emergency services do not exist? Fiona Mactaggart: That is absolutely true, and in the vast majority of areas there are enough. The reason I was seeking to interject earlier was the use of the word 'professional'. One of the very important things for most volunteers is that they might be voluntary but also they can be very professional in what they do, exemplary, in terms of the levels of skill and the achievement that they attain. The word 'professional' has more than one meaning and I wanted to interject about the recognition of the intense professionalism which people contribute voluntarily. Q372 Chairman: Minister, forgive me. Nobody argues with you about how professional they are. If they do not exist, it does not matter whether they are professional or not. What evidence do you have that people are volunteering on the scale they used to? How many organisations have you consulted about whether they are able to recruit the same number of volunteers? What particular estimates have been made by the Home Office of certainly the relationship between emergency services? Frankly, if volunteers do not come forward, Britain has treaty obligations which would mean that you would need to supply a, forgive me, "professional" service. Kind words and suggestions about tax breaks with employers we might think are admirable, in fact we might even give them a framed certificate, but if there are not enough people volunteering really it is a waste of time, is it not? Fiona Mactaggart: We have been directly in touch with the RNLI, the ACS and similar organisations. Q373 Chairman: They have assured you they have quite enough volunteers? Fiona Mactaggart: No. They have said that in the majority of their centres they have more then enough volunteers, but there are exceptions to that general picture. What we are looking at is, with the investment that we are putting into the volunteering infrastructure through the Year of the Volunteer, one of the jobs is recruiting and persuading people who have not volunteered traditionally to find ways of volunteering, to volunteer. These organisations have not used traditionally, for good reasons, the volunteering infrastructure as a recruitment method. As Mr Jamieson said, they have had traditions in their communities where word of mouth type recruitment, and so on, has been very appropriate and traditionally has kept up sufficient volunteering. In a minority of cases that is not sufficient at present. That is why we are looking to the extra infrastructure and we are investing £80 million in the voluntary sector infrastructure, including specific volunteering infrastructure, in helping people to manage volunteers and to recruit volunteers, encouraging these organisations, in those small number of areas where they find this challenging, to work with that infrastructure, which traditionally they have not done, to recruit new volunteers. Q374 Chairman: Would you be astonished if I told you that when we asked Mountain Rescue, who are very professional, "Do you feel that the Government appreciates the work you do?" we were informed "No"? Fiona Mactaggart: I am not astonished, because the work they do is extraordinary and I think it would take a great deal to appreciate sufficiently the extraordinariness of it. They are heroes, and one of the ambitions that we have in the Year of the Volunteer is to celebrate the heroes who volunteer. Q375 Chairman: Frankly, what does that mean, Minister, "to celebrate the heroes"? The world, God help us, is full of heroes, all of them male. How are we going to celebrate the heroes? Fiona Mactaggart: By doing things like giving them medals. Q376 Chairman: Oh, I see. The Mountain Rescue people told us that the Government was singularly unappreciative, it more or less implied that it had no very clear view of what they were doing, nor did it seek to provide the support that actually they need. They are very concerned about health and safety at work. They were told that there were real problems, because the regulations do not apply to Mountain Rescue volunteers because they are volunteers, and we are going to give them a medal. Do you feel that is an appropriate response? Fiona Mactaggart: On the issue of health and safety, you were asking how we could celebrate and appreciate volunteers. Q377 Chairman: Yes, to encourage the numbers? Fiona Mactaggart: Yes, indeed. Volunteers do not want to be given money, they do want to be given a 'thank you', they do want to be recognised. I have described some of the ways in which we are recognising them. Also, they want appropriate investment in making it easy to become a volunteer and I have described the way in which we are seeking to do that. In addition, we are trying to help organisations with issues like the one you highlighted, which is recognising what responsibilities they have in relation to things like health and safety and insurance, and so on. On health and safety, the Health and Safety at Work Act does not apply to volunteers, but clearly voluntary organisations require health and safety practices, if they are not their own, they require mechanisms to develop health and safety training. Now that is a very challenging thing in Mountain Rescue. A standard package would not work for them, but the role in which Government can help here is by making sure that they are aware of legal obligations and making sure that they are supported in dealing with some of the legal complications. One of the things which I have done recently is called together a summit of volunteer-involving organisations about the legal status of volunteers, because health and safety is one example of some of the challenges which legal status creates, there are challenges in terms of people's rights under employment law, and so on. That has happened. We have got better clarity. We are establishing good guidance for people, better information about insurance, which is going to be, first of all, the Association of British Insurers. We have had a series of meetings with them through an Insurance Cover Working Group and they are producing a booklet and guidance and advice for voluntary organisations. Q378 Chairman: Should health and safety requirements made of statutory emergency services, should they be involved in Search and Rescue, be more clearly defined, do you think? Fiona Mactaggart: I am not competent, I think, to answer the health and safety point, in terms of statutory emergency services specifically, but the health and safety law relates to employees. Q379 Chairman: Can I just stop you there. I will give you an example, because I think it is important you should realise the evidence which I would have thought would have been made available to you. We were told by the Chief Fire Officers' Association that, following the death of a fire-fighter who was trying to rescue a young man from the water, discussions with the HSE were sometimes unhelpful. They were saying, when they ask "What is best practice? Is that sound?" the reply they get is, "Well, actually it's your responsibility to deal with it." With the greatest will in the world, would it not be better to sort out that rather than worry about giving them medals? Fiona Mactaggart: The Health and Safety Executive's responsibility for health and safety law is to act as an inspectorate of health and safety law. My colleague, Mr Hope, is responsible for the Fire Service and probably he will know much better than I exactly how that operates within that Service. What we are trying to do, and I think it is important to understand this, is assist the voluntary sector, for which the health and safety law, which is about health and safety at work, does not apply, to develop appropriate health and safety practices for the kind of volunteering that they have. Also, to ensure that insurance companies are aware of what those sorts of health and safety practices appropriately are in order to diminish insurance charges, so that we can enable organisations to do this without being at risk of enormous insurance premiums, which is an issue in this sector and an important one. Also, to get better health and safety practice and better communication so that it works better. Q380 Chairman: Mr Hope, briefly on this? Phil Hope: I just want to explain that the Fire Service, and the Retained Fire Service in particular, are not volunteers, they are a paid Service and they do their duties paid part-time. In that sense, they are not volunteers at all; they have chosen to do a paid part-time job and are released by their employer to do it. On the particular incident you mention, which I was aware of, Mrs Dunwoody, which did lead to the tragic death of a fire-fighter under the retained duties system when he was attempting a water rescue, that resulted in the Health and Safety Executive prosecuting the Greater Manchester Council. That was unsuccessful but it has led to a wider debate now between the Health and Safety Executive and the Fire and Rescue Service about the different protocols, because there are fire risk assessment procedures and the training and equipment required. Q381 Chairman: The point that was being made to us, Minister, was a very simple one. It is that if you want people to volunteer, and in this particular case certainly it was a retained fire-fighter but the principle is exactly the same, surely it would be a lot more sensible to sort out practical problems like that? Phil Hope: Yes, indeed. On that particular incident, there was some national guidance then published, which now other Fire and Rescue Services can use, called 'Working On or Near Water'. I think, if there is anything positive which can come out of a tragedy like that, certainly that is a positive step forward. Importantly, on the wider question of the retained system, we rely heavily on the retained system providing for fire and rescue cover in this country. Some 60 per cent of appliances are manned using the retained system, 90 per cent of the country is covered through the retained system and, there is a problem, we have a 20 per cent shortfall. What we would like to be seeing is in terms of recruitment to that retained system. There was a report published recently looking at the whole issue of how we can raise the capability and the performance of the retained system and that covers questions about the recognition, the retaining of the retained fire-fighters, recruitment, in fact the whole culture of the Fire and Rescue Service. I am sorry, I am drifting off it slightly, Mrs Dunwoody, but it is a key area for us. Q382 Clive Efford: Just on that point, on the retained fire-fighters, are they not performing exactly the same service as Auxiliary Coastguard staff? Should they not be retained on the same basis? Phil Hope: The Auxiliary Coastguard staffing will be a matter for the DfT to reply to, if that is okay, Mrs Dunwoody, because I do not know all the details. What I do know is that the retained system does provide a huge amount of cover, and indeed what we are trying to do is make sure that is fully integrated between both the full-time fire-fighter and the retained fire-fighter. This would include, for the coastal Fire and Rescue authorities, through the Sea of Change project, equipping and training fire-fighters, which might include full-time or retained, to provide rescue at sea, and that is a project in which I think 15 coastal Fire and Rescue authorities are engaging, with funding from DfT to equip and train the fire-fighters. Q383 Clive Efford: I will come back to that, but on the point about the Auxiliary Coastguard staff? Mr Jamieson: There are similarities and differences between the two. I think it is true to say that they are more like part-time workers, in terms of the retained fire-fighters, who never know quite when their hours are going to be expended, so they are in a slightly different position. Whereas the auxiliary coastguards are voluntary; when they get called out they get a call‑out fee for three hours and they are paid hourly after that. Generally, they are people who are in full-time, other employment, or people who are not employed or perhaps are retired, they are people upon whom we call in cases when there is an emergency. Q384 Clive Efford: What is the current situation regarding dealing with offshore fires; do we have adequate cover? Mr Jamieson: We had concerns that we got down to nine fire authorities providing the cover and we were concerned that a number of authorities were pulling out of the cover at sea. As Phil has just mentioned, there is a Sea of Change project which my department has funded, which is for training and for equipment. We have now 15 fire authorities around our coast, which we think is adequate for tackling the issues of fire at sea. In the longer term, we will have some issues to do with how we are going to cope with the funding, but we are going to discuss those between the two departments. I think there is adequate cover now around the coast. Q385 Clive Efford: How would you respond to the criticism that the ODPM have not been sufficiently instrumental in the changes? Phil Hope: I think we have got a good dialogue going on now between the departments to ensure that we do have the project fully funded. We have got questions about the longer term, which we are going to resolve between us, and we want to ensure that the Fire and Rescue Service, along with the Coastguard, do provide proper cover, as required, for offshore fire-fighting and rescue at sea. I have heard that criticism. We have acted and I think there is now a good relationship and an effective project in place, the Sea of Change project, which will deliver the outcomes that we want to see. Q386 Clive Efford: You would say that the Fire Service is satisfied with the current situation, now that the ODPM have responded to their criticisms? Phil Hope: There is resource available from the DfT to assist coastal Fire and Rescue authorities to equip and train fire-fighters to undertake this role, and that is the important step which has been taken from the Sea of Change project. As you know, there is in the draft Order, which has just finished consultation, an inclusion of a duty upon a Fire and Rescue authority to respond where the MCA request them to do so. We need to look at the responses to that consultation, look at the questions of funding and then respond accordingly. Q387 Clive Efford: One of the criticisms has been that the ODPM had not recognised that, as an island, we do a lot of trade at sea, and therefore it is absolutely essential that the ODPM are fully engaged. Can I give you an opportunity to comment on that? Phil Hope: I understand the criticism. All I can say to you is that there is a good working relationship between ourselves and the DfT, who have got the lead responsibility for the coast and offshore services, and I think the new Sea of Change project, with the 15 coastal Fire and Rescue authorities, is providing the kind of assurance that I think those Fire Services might have been wanting to hear. Q388 Clive Efford: I am not sure you are. I am going to push you a bit further. Are you saying that the ODPM accept that they have a responsibility in this area? Phil Hope: The lead responsibility rests with the Department for Transport. They have been very helpful in developing the Sea of Change project, with coastal Fire and Rescue authorities. As a result of that and discussions we have had about the way forward, I think we have now a very practical working project which will demonstrate how we can deliver the kinds of assurances which those in the Fire and Rescue Service have sought. Mr Jamieson: Can I add just one line, to say that I think it is an omission that the ODPM is not represented on the Strategic Group, and that is something I think we are going to put right. Q389 Chairman: Mind you, if you meet only once a year, it is not going to be lonely, is it? Phil Hope: Mrs Dunwoody, the operators do have CFOA on there and they meet regularly but, I think it is true to say, that structure was set up pre-2001. Q390 Chairman: They probably send you a copy of the minutes. Phil Hope: That was when the transition was made of the Fire and Rescue Service's responsibilities from the Home Office to the ODPM, and consequently we do need to address that. Q391 Clive Efford: I want to go back to a point made earlier on, because I may have missed something, it is about the health and safety requirements relating to the Fire Service and the incident which happened last year. The criticism of the HSE is that they will not give any indication of what they might require, or what they might want to see, in terms of procedure, in relation to health and safety, and that turns it into a bit of a guessing game? Phil Hope: The difficulty is, as you know, the Fire Service do a risk management assessment, both overall in their integrated risk management planning and specifically incident by incident, and they will be training and equipping for what they expect to be, in their area, the kinds of incidents they might have to deal with. The extra resources that have gone in for dealing with, for instance, new dimension type incidents, and so on, have helped equip them for those kinds of issues. That is a different type of assessment, and the funding for that from the HSE, the individual protocols that they develop when they analyse a particular incident. What we have got to do is try to bring these two together so that we do not have this kind of difference and actually we can try to reconcile those two things together. On the particular incident which triggered a lot of this debate, the one in Manchester, yes, we have now published this guidance. I think there is more work to be done with the HSE and the Fire and Rescue Service to try to make sure that these things are complementary to one another and not, as it were, contradicting one another, so that fire-fighters can be sure that when they are going into an incident they have been properly equipped and trained to do the job safely. Q392 Clive Efford: May I move on, just briefly, to the issue of safety on beaches, that the RNLI are now providing cover on some beaches. Is there any statutory responsibility for any organisation to provide safety information or cover on beaches? Phil Hope: No, there is not. Local authorities have no statutory requirement to supply lifeguards, and it is at the discretion of the local authority, on the assessment of their own needs in their own areas, that they will decide whether or not to do that. I have to say, where the local authorities are owners of the beach then they do provide them; that is what happens on the ground. They do that kind of provision mainly in close liaison with RNLI or whatever other group would be the appropriate group to provide that kind of safety, but it is not a statutory requirement. Q393 Clive Efford: It has been suggested to us that some local authorities are stepping back from taking responsibility. Is there a need for guidance to make it clear in this area? Phil Hope: I am happy to look at that, Mrs Dunwoody. The difficulty is, we have a strategy, as you know, where local authorities undertake their own assessment of their communities' needs and priorities. I would expect, through their Local Strategic Partnership, through their Community Strategy, through their own planning processes about needs and priorities, if they do have a beach, if the beach is unsafe, that would be a matter for the local authority to decide how to respond to that. Indeed, under the various forms of inspection, the Comprehensive Performance Assessment and other ways of holding authorities to account, there are mechanisms where local authorities are expected to look at their own communities' needs and respond accordingly. If you are a coastal authority, I would expect that would be something which they might take into account, but, I repeat, there is no statutory requirement for them to do so. Q394 Miss McIntosh: Mr Jamieson, are we more dependent upon volunteers in Search and Rescue in this country, coastal, maritime and mountain? Mr Jamieson: More dependent than they would be in other countries. There is a very wide range of different models of Search and Rescue throughout the world and they operate in all sorts of different ways. Some of the other European countries have written them down for water, they have a totally professional, almost semi-military organisation, I believe in the United States as well. Many other countries run a system which is rather like ours, which is partly the full-time, paid professionals - I am being very cautious about the use of this word 'professional' now - but also people who volunteer their services. It is interesting that many countries with which we have had associations historically tend to have a model rather like ours, and I think France tends to have a system which is very centrally run, almost militaristic. That is for them to decide. What we have to look at with our system is does it work and is it saving lives, and really that is the judgment we have to make. Q395 Miss McIntosh: In their submission to this Committee, NUMAST have suggested that the provision of statutory recognition for voluntary work with the UK Search and Rescue agencies should be actively considered. What would be the implications of that for recruiting volunteers? Mr Jamieson: I am not sure. That has not been brought to my attention before. I am not quite sure what that means. All the volunteers, certainly in the Coastguard, are very much recognised for the work that they do, in some cases they are paid for the work. They are highly trained and they have to come up to the standards of those people who are working full-time, professionally, just as the retained fire-fighters have to as well. Anything which enhances their status, anything which assists those people, and certainly enhances the recruitment, then certainly we would look at that positively. Q396 Miss McIntosh: Obviously, both at sea and in mountainous regions, weather has quite an impact on the potential for an accident or an incident, particularly weather forecasting. We heard that the MCA do repeat, make available, the Met. weather forecasts. They would look favourably on having a dedicated channel for sailors and sea-goers, but presumably that would require extra financing. Is that something the department would look favourably upon? Mr Jamieson: Again, I have not had that issue brought to me at an operational level, but if it were needed operationally of course the MCA would address that. Q397 Mrs Ellman: Has any guidance been issued to local authorities about how they should work with voluntary Search and Rescue organisations in emergency planning? Phil Hope: We would not be aware of any guidance on emergency planning. We are establishing a new regional forum, a resilience forum, across the country, as part of the Civil Contingencies Act. That forum will give an opportunity for us to liaise, consult and engage with those voluntary Search and Rescue organisations, to ensure that, in the regional assessment of risk and in responding to incidents as and when they occur, there is a structure by which we will have engaged, as it were, with those organisations, before the event happens, to ensure that we understand their needs and their assessment of the risks. Q398 Mrs Ellman: We did have some evidence that there was some inconsistency of approach, so would that deal with it? Phil Hope: Local authorities should have regard to the views of the voluntary organisations in their area according to the situation, because there is a difference between what goes on in the mountainous areas and what goes on around the coastline. That is now part of the new system which is in place. You asked me whether we had issued specific guidance on that. What we have done is created a new structure and a new system in which those people should be operating. Technically, that is guidance. I would need to write to the Committee to say that, but certainly the new structure is in place and clearly that is something which should be happening through the new structure. Q399 Mrs Ellman: Should Mountain Rescue in England and Wales get any statutory funding, as it does in Scotland? Is that something which is being considered? Fiona Mactaggart: The Scottish funding is put through the Police Services in Scotland and actually there are two police areas in England where Mountain Rescue organisations do get funding, that is North Wales and Cumbria, via their Police Service, mainly for their insurance costs. There is the capacity for the police to do that in the same way for particular needs which are identified in a particular area. Obviously, the need in Scotland is greater because there are more mountain rescues in Scotland. Q400 Mrs Ellman: You are not envisaging any change in the current arrangements? Fiona Mactaggart: It is a matter for the individual police authority to determine within their overall budget. They can; they have the power to do that. Mr Jamieson: Although we do not have a specific responsibility for this, we have provided some VHF channels for use by Mountain Rescue, to help co‑ordinate some of the activity. Some of the activity is strictly on land and some is at sea. We recognise that, working together, in that sense, makes good sense. Q401 Mrs Ellman: Where people put themselves at risk, do you think they should contribute to the cost of the rescue? Phil Hope: If the Fire and Rescue Service goes out to a ship in distress and carries out some fire-fighting task, they can charge the owners of the ship for that service, so there is a charging system in place in those circumstances. Q402 Mrs Ellman: What about in other circumstances? Fiona Mactaggart: One of the things which happen in some of those countries which have wholly professional Mountain Rescue type arrangements is the anxiety of people going to enjoy the mountains without huge insurance cover. It is quite a complex issue to ensure that people can enjoy our countryside confidently and safely, and not only people who can enjoy it with a large insurance premium. It is not a simple answer. Mr Jamieson: I think a similar thing happens on the sea. We want people to be able to enjoy the sea and the coast, and they are doing so in increasing numbers, particularly in the south of England, from Kent all the way down to Cornwall. The last thing I would want is for somebody to feel inhibited about calling the emergency services because they thought that some payment was going to be made, or whether they were insured or not. I think that would be catastrophic. Some sort of contribution, I have to say, would be attractive, but the professional seafarers, the commercial vessels, do have to pay. Q403 Ian Lucas: Minister, Ms Mactaggart, you mentioned that in North Wales part of the police budget is used to make a contribution to Mountain Rescue. Do you know how much that is? Fiona Mactaggart: It is £12,500. Q404 Ian Lucas: Why should the council taxpayers in North Wales have to pay towards Mountain Rescue when no other areas, apart from Cumbria, in England and Wales have to pay? Fiona Mactaggart: Because that meets their specific policing need. Q405 Ian Lucas: It is not a policing need? Fiona Mactaggart: The way we fund the police authorities provides some additional funding, for example, to rural areas, under the Rural Policing Fund, and the idea is that, instead of having a central determination of all the things that the police could spend their money on, we seek to give local autonomy to the police authority and the chief police officer, so that in meeting the needs of their community they can find the most intelligent way to do it. They have the authority to do this, which, as I say, they have done in two places, where it meets a need. I suppose, one of the reasons why they have done it is because they believe that the service which is provided reduces the pressure on the police authority, but I do not know, I am not that authority. It seems to me appropriate that we delegate to local level, to the mountainous areas where this might be an appropriate thing to do, the possibility of making that decision. It is funded by resources because of the Rural Policing Fund. Q406 Ian Lucas: Is there a specific allocation from the Home Office to cover Mountain Rescue costs? Fiona Mactaggart: No, there is not a specific allocation but, as I said, there is the Rural Policing Fund at present. Q407 Ian Lucas: In my constituency of Wrexham, council taxpayers, when they pay their police precept, are actually paying a contribution towards Mountain Rescue which is not paid by anywhere else, apart from Cumbria. Do you think that is fair? Fiona Mactaggart: Yes, I think I do, because what is right, I think, is that, in a police authority area, that police authority can decide what the needs of that area are, and police authorities in different places have different sets of needs, not all of which are obvious policing of the community. Sometimes the police authority, in the area which I represent, gets involved in, for example, some community relations and community cohesion because that makes the area safer in terms of other issues. I can see, therefore, that, in North Wales, ensuring that there is an efficient and effective Mountain Rescue Service probably ensures in other ways that the work of the police works better. Q408 Ian Lucas: Because we have mountains in North Wales? Fiona Mactaggart: You have mountains, we have racial tension. Q409 Ian Lucas: I do not think, Minister, that is a very appropriate comment to make to the MP for Wrexham. Fiona Mactaggart: Indeed; of course. I am sorry. It was a sort of flip response. Q410 Ian Lucas: Yes, it was, was it not? Fiona Mactaggart: It was an inappropriate response and I apologise. What I do think is that in particular areas the police need to be able to make a judgment about what is appropriate for their area and we have given them the authority to do that. Q411 Chairman: With respect, if you look at the sums of money which are given by the Scottish Parliament to Mountain Rescue, we are not talking of them spending it on something which is of concern only to them. New radio equipment for an integrated communications system, communication and control vehicles, general grant in aid; these are things which are absolutely essential to enable them to do the work. Were you to say to other police authorities that they should automatically assume responsibility for various other systems, they would certainly come to you and ask for the amounts of money, the £300,000 towards new radio equipment, would they not? They would not expect to absorb that in their budgets? Fiona Mactaggart: The £300,000 which has been given through the police in Scotland to the Scottish authorities is, to some degree, a reflection of the importance of this issue in Scotland. We think that it needs to be decided by local police authorities. As I have expressed, two police authorities have chosen to give resources to their local Mountain Rescue particularly to deal with insurance costs, as I understand it. Equally, they could have the power to give money for equipment, in the way that the Scottish police have done. Q412 Ian Lucas: Will you make the necessary regulations to enable Mountain Rescue teams to use blue lights on the way to call‑outs? Mr Jamieson, you mentioned Boscastle earlier on. We have had evidence from Mountain Rescue in England and Wales that the team leader of the Mountain Rescue who responded with two fully-crewed vehicles at Boscastle was reprimanded by the police for the use of blue lights and sirens? Mr Jamieson: As I understand this, the auxiliary coastguards in the Coastguard vehicles, not in their own vehicles, and the Mountain Rescue can use blue lights, but they do not have any dispensation to break the law, they cannot exceed the speed limit or jump red lights. Q413 Ian Lucas: The evidence we have had is that they were reprimanded for using blue lights and sirens, and we had that confirmed in evidence before us? Mr Jamieson: Mr Lucas, I would be very happy to look at that, because blue lights is actually an issue for my department, strangely enough, and I would be very happy to look at it. It is an issue we have raised as well in the context of the Road Safety Bill and we are looking at a number of applications from those who want to use blue lights. We are very reluctant, of course, to extend it any more than absolutely necessary, because there are road safety concerns, but I would be very happy to look at that particular incident. If somebody is using their own vehicle then obviously they do not have a blue light and obviously have no exemption. It is one of the problems for RNLI, auxiliaries, Mountain Rescue people, in their own vehicle, going to an emergency. I recognise that as a difficulty and a problem for them. Q414 Ian Lucas: I gather, I have just been handed a note to say this, that there are different police practices on the issue of blue lights in different areas, so some guidance of some sort may be very helpful? Mr Jamieson: I will provide a note on this, Mrs Dunwoody, to be absolutely sure, but it was my understanding, which may be wrong, that the Mountain Rescue had the ability to use blue lights, but I will give you a note. Q415 Chairman: We were given evidence that there have been occasions, and I think Boscastle was one of them, where none of the other emergency services could proceed because the people they were waiting for did not have the ability to use blue lights to get there in good time? Mr Jamieson: A lot of the people actually were stuck in floods as well, and that was the reason they could not get to the incident. Really, the astonishing thing we saw there was the way that the military and the MCA helicopters came in and performed the rescue, and I believe they actually rescued some of the Fire Service people, to start with, because they were in trouble on the ground in floods. I think that is just a demonstration, although there is no overall command, of how it is working in a co‑ordinated, joined‑up way. Q416 Chairman: Minister, what concerns this Committee is that we need to be convinced that in your efforts to encourage volunteers you are actually addressing those things which make the difference. For example, has any one of your departments had any discussions with the Treasury about value added tax which is applied to any of the volunteers who are involved in the emergency services? The RNLI were talking to us about £3.9 million. That is a very considerable amount of money, which is irrecoverable, and would actually produce one or two quite interesting ships in the right place, I think. Fiona Mactaggart: We do have these conversations, but the conclusion has been that the most effective way to increase the income of a voluntary organisation, like the RNLI, which depends on donations, is through very substantial tax breaks on charitable giving and effective encouragement of tax-efficient giving, which can increase the value of donations by 33 per cent. We are focusing on the income to be dealt with by tax breaks rather than on the expenditure. Q417 Chairman: The £3.9 million is what they have actually paid, and the suggestion that tax breaks would be available to people giving to them in the future is what they might get if somebody gives them money in the future. It is not quite the same thing? Fiona Mactaggart: No. It is the money which is being given to them now, much of which is not given in a tax-efficient way, which could be increased by about 30 per cent by more tax-efficient giving. Q418 Chairman: I see, so we send out a set of guidelines which tell them that if they were better at collecting money they would not be in this situation? Fiona Mactaggart: No. It is helping voluntary organisations to raise money in this way. The RNLI is an organisation which can do that. Q419 Chairman: The difficulty we face is that we take evidence on practical things which the voluntary organisations find are genuine barriers. You have had three examples given to you today and what we would like would be some evidence that the Government not only understands, firstly, that they are practical difficulties, secondly, that we are increasingly getting into the situation where volunteers are not coming forward for these services and that without them the Government would have a statutory obligation to replace them with a full-time, professional service. Given that, could I ask you again what practical means all three of you are suggesting for help with health and safety, for help with value added tax, for help with all the other things which have been raised with you this afternoon for confronting the situation of Mountain Rescue, who are treated differently in Wales from the way they are treated in Scotland? Frankly, I have not yet heard any evidence that Government is dealing with those sorts of barriers. Mr Jamieson: In terms of the Auxiliary Coastguard, Mrs Dunwoody, we are currently doing a review of the divisions to look at a lot of those issues. We are concerned about recruitment. There is not a serious problem yet, but we recognise there could be and we recognise some of the other problems to do with health and safety which we have covered. It is a changing and developing situation that we are looking at in our review. Q420 Chairman: How long will that review take, given that, saving your eminent and important presence, you may not be here to see the conclusion of that work? Mr Jamieson: I am sure that, even if I am not here, Mrs Dunwoody, there will be somebody competent to carry that work forward. Q421 Chairman: We have no doubt that you are irreplaceable, Minister. Mr Jamieson: I have never believed I was irreplaceable, Mrs Dunwoody. I believe that only you are. Q422 Chairman: There is a phrase for Devonians like you, Sir, but we will not use it because there is a record being taken. Phil Hope: Mrs Dunwoody, can I just say, in terms of the Fire and Rescue Service, I think it is very important that we do recognise we have got a real challenge to make good what we know to be a shortfall in the recruitment and retention within the retained duty system. This is something that we have been aware of, and we have had a huge change process going on with the Fire and Rescue Service, a complete shift of culture towards prevention as well as rescue and response, a major development as we recognise the need to integrate the retained system within the full-time system, to raise the profile, working with employers to raise the profile. Q423 Chairman: There is no point coming here and telling us that 60 per cent are retained fire-fighters if we are not seeking ways of actually recruiting more? Phil Hope: Indeed so. The retained duty system report which has been produced has got 51 recommendations, from memory, covering a range of areas, from retention and recruitment through to general publicity and awareness, through working with the employers, in particular, because they are the ones that allow their retained fire-fighters to leave work, literally at the drop of a hat and respond to an incident, to try to broaden, in response to Mr Efford's point, the role which retained fire-fighters can play, so looking at flexible crewing patterns, looking at the complete gamut. A 'task and finish' group has been established, through the Fire and Rescue authorities, to bring forward the implementation of those 51 recommendations. Q424 Chairman: Mr Jamieson, the National Coastwatch Institution, is it a waste of time? Mr Jamieson: No, certainly not. Q425 Chairman: The MCA do not seem to be persuaded of its importance, do they? They do not want them to use their redundant buildings, they say that most of their calls come through the general public, not through something like the National Coastwatch Institution. Why is your view different from the MCA's? Mr Jamieson: My view is not different from the MCA's, Mrs Dunwoody. My view and theirs are totally coincident. The MCA has made available 15 sites for the National Coastwatch Institution. Q426 Chairman: We have taken evidence just this afternoon you did not think it was all that important? Mr Jamieson: I have to say, Mrs Dunwoody, we just have to look objectively at the facts. Back in 1978, when the Coastguard ended the watches on the coast, at that time only one per cent of the incidents were reported from the coastguard who was watching the sea through binoculars or through a telescope. Even that one per cent, nearly all the incidents had been reported already by some other means, which means that at least 99 per cent were reported by other means. The National Coastwatch Institution do a job of work, they are volunteers, they do not tend to work in bad weather, they do not work in the hours of darkness, they are working only on the south coast, I have to say, in Devon and Cornwall they are well represented. We make access certainly to the coastguard stations where we can, but in many cases, for good, solid, practical and security reasons, we cannot let them use those facilities. Q427 Chairman: Has the department ever done an assessment of the numbers of times that the intervention of the Marine and Coastguard Agency has actually made a difference between life and death? Mr Jamieson: Yes. I believe that an analysis is done of each incident to see how the response has been made, and particularly where there has been difficulty and where there has been death involved they do look at each of those incidents carefully. Q428 Chairman: When the National Audit Office produced a report which said that it improved certain capability and response indicators and associated targets should be providing a more complete picture of performance in the performance of the UK civil maritime Search and Rescue, what follow-up was there? Mr Jamieson: I do not know, Mrs Dunwoody. That would be a matter for the Chief Executive to inform you about, but certainly I can do a note to you and inform you of what action was taken at that time. Q429 Chairman: How long do you think it is going to be before there are not sufficient volunteers available to maintain the level of cover that you require in the emergency services? Mr Jamieson: In terms of the auxiliary coastguards, at the moment, as I say, there is always ongoing recruitment, there is no shortage of such at the moment, but there are increasing difficulties in recruiting people, for the reasons which we have explored fairly thoroughly here this afternoon. That is why we are doing a full review of the retention, the recruitment, the training and the other important issues for those people. You say quite rightly that if we do not have auxiliaries and people who give voluntarily of their services, we will have to supplant that by people who are paid, full-time, professionally to do that particular job. It is very much in our interests to make sure that those volunteers do come forward and that we retain the high quality of service from them that we have at the moment. Q430 Chairman: Will you furnish this Committee with at least some indication of why VAT is still chargeable upon so much of the equipment that is needed, for example, by the Lowland Search and Rescue and also by the RNLI? Fiona Mactaggart: Yes, I can provide that. Mr Jamieson: It might be a matter, of course, that you will want to approach the Treasury on, Mrs Dunwoody. Fiona Mactaggart: That is a matter for HM Customs as well. Q431 Chairman: One understands this perfectly, but I understood that what you were seeking to do, between the three of you, was co‑ordinate the barriers that stood in the way of volunteers. Also, I assumed that you were here to talk to us about how you could recruit more and not fewer? Fiona Mactaggart: I think that we are making some substantial progress on recruiting more volunteers. Q432 Chairman: In numbers; you can give us the numbers? Fiona Mactaggart: In numbers, yes. I gave you the numbers of volunteering generally, the increase in formal volunteering which is reflected in the Home Office Citizenship Survey between 2001 and 2003, and the investment that we are making in improving volunteer recruitment, not for these specific organisations but these organisations can benefit from it, is quite substantial and is increasing volunteering generally, we believe. The problem is that this is a survey we do every two years, we have just done the 2005 one, we are just in the process of it. I cannot provide you with figures currently, but it is a bi-annual survey, it is showing an increase in the number of volunteers, and our partner organisations, which are the kind of umbrella bodies and the volunteer bureau, are suggesting that there is an increase in volunteer recruitment. Q433 Chairman: Minister, do you accept that if volunteers were not found to staff these services you would need to produce a full-time, statutory service to replace them? Mr Jamieson: I think if there were no volunteers then we would need the level of service we have got now and it would have to be provided in different ways. What we have in this country, I am very pleased to say, are thousands of people who do volunteer their services and in some cases actually risk their life to save other people's lives. Q434 Chairman: Yes, they are a dying breed, in every sense of the word, I am afraid, Minister. Mr Jamieson: I would not have chosen those words myself, Madam Chairman. Q435 Chairman: Thank you very much for coming to see us. We are grateful to you all. We wish you well in whatever important circle you should find yourself, and should you possibly need to come before this Committee and be addressed as 'Lord' we shall have to put up with that. Mr Jamieson: I do not expect that will be happening, Mrs Dunwoody, but it is a nice thought. Chairman: Thank you very much indeed.
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