Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20-35)
Dr Denis MacShane MP, Mr Tim Barrow and Mr Julian
Reilly
11 NOVEMBER 2004
Q20Baroness Northover: In terms of the elections,
encouragement at the very least will have to be urged upon Israel
in order to facilitate free elections in Palestine with the various
road blocks, encircling of villages and so on. Also, there has
been discussion over the last few months of course about the release
of certain prisoners in Israel. Earlier this year, the United
Kingdom government seemed relatively optimistic that something
would happen there. This becomes potentially quite critical if
elections are to be held.
Dr MacShane: I agree with you. That is why the
European Council at its meeting last Friday adopted a statement
calling upon Israel to facilitate these elections. It is very
evident what the implications of that are. The release of people
currently in prison in Israel could facilitate the election process.
It is not for me to say what the Israelis should do or which particular
gentleman or gentlemen should be released but I think we all know
what we are talking about. I can only offer the hope to the Committee
that over the next 24, 48 or 72 hours a lot of new thinking can
start, but it should start on the basis of at least a truce in
terms of the killing of civilians in Israel and in the other direction
as well.
Q21Lord Tomlinson: You referred in one of the
previous answers to the level of financial support going from
the European Union to the Palestinians. The last time I looked
at it, I estimated it to be something over 50 cents in the dollar
of the flanking measures for the peace process. Do you think that
we are exercising the level of political influence on the situation
that is commensurate with our economic contribution?
Dr MacShane: Do we get enough voice for our
bucks? That is a perfectly fair question. My honest answer would
be no. We do not influence Palestinian positions to persuade them
to adopt the road for peace. In my lifetime, I have seen different
ways to solve difficult political situations: the Mandela way,
the Havel way, the Solidarnosc way or the IRA way, the Basque
way, the Hizbollah and Hamas way. I think I know personally and
politically which I prefer. People might want to consider which
in the end produces better results. Our influence with Israel
also cannot be measures in terms of the money we put into the
region, as is self-evident. Nonetheless, I think it is right that
the European Union does spend that money because the alternative
of even worse poverty, depression and despair amongst the Palestinian
people is never justified but if it does help create part of the
culture from which people respond by using violence.
Q22Lord Powell of Bayswater: Would the Minister
agree that it is very important that the European Union does not
simply posture and try to score some early, easy political points
as some of its Members might seek to do? Would he agree too that
if there is going to be any substantial progress it will only
be because the European Union and the United States work very
closely together and one must therefore hope the Prime Minister
succeeds in his visit to Washington in getting the United States
to re-engage? I hope you would agree that the European Union should
hold back from trying to make early political capital out of its
own support for the Palestinians and wait until there can be a
coordinated approach which I think could be achieved, whether
it is in the form of a special representative, a peace conference
or whatever.
Dr MacShane: I entirely agree with you. For
two years, I have been sitting in on European Council meetings
with foreign ministers. What I would like to share with the Committee
is that the notion that there is a single voice out of Europe
on this issue is quite wrong. As long as the German Foreign Minister
is in office, Israel will not want for a friend at the highest
level of the Councils of Europe. I refer to the interview that
the Spanish Foreign Minister gave to El Pais this Sunday
in which he said that in terms of the Middle East—he was
the EU special representative there before he became Spain's Foreign
Minister—he found it easier to work with a republican department
of state than under President Clinton's leadership. You have the
Prime Minister himself representing the United Kingdom—and
the good wishes of Europe go with him—talking to the President
today and tomorrow. The last thing one wants is posturing of any
sort. There is a window of opportunity, to use that wretched cliché,
and I hope people are ready to seize it. As of this morning, in
a week or a month I will be in a better position to report. It
is just one of those moments of fluidity in foreign relations.
I hope we can reshape things before the old verities and trench
like positions come back.
Q23Baroness Northover: On Iraq, what can the
EU do to assist the UN in preparing for elections in Iraq in January
and what is the government's opinion on an EU civilian crisis
mission to Iraq?
Dr MacShane: A number of Member States have
made contributions to support the elections in Iraq. The European
Commission has contributed 30 million euros to the UN trust fund
for elections and will provide three election experts to advise
the independent electoral authority of Iraq and provide training
for 150 Iraqi domestic observers. We have had the EU fact finding
mission in Iraq for a week in the first half of October. It reported
that the best thing would be to see a civilian European security
and defence policy mission launched in Iraq, but there are difficulties
operating inside Iraq at the moment. Every Member State would
have to worry about security and accommodation for all of its
people. I think Member States last week who met with Mr Allawi
realised that continually re-running the fights of who was right
and who was wrong in 2002-03 is pointless. Mr Barnier, the French
Foreign Minister, in an open letter to the American people published
in the Wall Street Journal yesterday and a slightly different
form in Le Monde talked very positively about what France
is willing to do in Iraq, short of sending troops there of course.
One can sense a mood shift in Europe to see that getting to elections
in January, allowing them to be as free and open within the limits
of the non-stop terrorist attack on Iraqi forces, Iraqi policemen
and Iraqi government officials has to be the right way forward.
Q24Lord Inge: What I am still not clear on is
how we are going to provide the security for those elections to
take place.
Dr MacShane: That is obviously the key question.
We have currently the fighting in Fallujah to try and remove the
base that that town is providing for terrorist activities. That
is an important step forward. I will not hide from you that clearly
the terrorist outfits, the fundamentalist people who want to destabilise
Iraq, will use every mechanism to try to prevent elections taking
place but equally we have the same worries about whether it would
be possible to have elections in Afghanistan and the Afghan people
turned out in force. I fully accept that and I will not hide from
you that there are conditions in Europe between those who are
simply arguing that Europe collective as the EU should not be
present in Iraq in terms of security, in terms of military operations,
in terms of police operations. There are other countries that
do not share that view but that is the price of being in the European
Union. What we want is not necessarily what we always get.
Q25Lord Inge: I agree with what you say about
Afghanistan but the challenges are that much greater in Iraq than
they were in Afghanistan in terms of providing the right security.
Dr MacShane: Indeed, much greater.
Q26Lord Inge: The price of failure is greater.
Dr MacShane: I do not admit the possibility
of failure. I may be over-optimistic but the Iraqi trade unionists
and other people I meet who come to visit Britain are much more
determined. They do not get the publicity. They do not get the
profile. It is one of the tragedies that people in this country
still think it is more important for a British politician or ex-civil
servant to go on the radio or television to announce their opinions
rather than the people of Iraq.
Q27Lord Inge: We are probably only talking about
five of the electoral areas out of the 18 or whatever we are talking
about but those five are the very important, critical ones.
Dr MacShane: Yes. Do not forget we are operating
under international law now and I wish some of my colleagues in
Parliament would understand that resolution 1546 authorises the
use of all necessary means to deal with terrorism and facilitate
the normal political process in Iraq. There will be a debate until
kingdom come about the use of force to go into Iraq. British,
American, Japanese, Australian and European troops in Iraq are
now operating under international law just as French troops in
the Ivory Coast operate under international law. The quicker that
message is got out and we hear a little less of the endless re-run—I
understand why people want to attack the Prime Minister. It is
the normal politics and flip-flopping we have from different politicians—and
a little more of a re-run debate at the general election but in
between times for the British political establishment to say,
"Forward with the elections, forward with the defeat of the
terrorists and all of Europe should be present . . ."—
Lord Inge: Do not misunderstand me. I am merely saying
that I agree with you absolutely. We are where we are but part
of where we are is trying to make sure those elections have security.
Q28Lord Morris of Aberavon: Do we expect that
people will be queuing up at the polling booths on election day
all over Iraq? We have seen pictures of them doing it in America.
On a scale of one to ten, what are the chances?
Dr MacShane: I do not know. I have not been
down there. Iraqis are educated, civilised people in thrall to
terror. There are many ways of voting. I am talking purely personally
now. It is a huge challenge for the government, for the UN, for
the international community as a whole. I cannot for a second
say that there are not great concerns. Let us wait until we see
the end of the Fallujah operations and consider what we can do
then. Clearly, if the fundamentalists and the fascist terrorists
succeed in their aim with the help, alas, of the intelligentsia
in Europe and, I am ashamed to say, my own country, that would
be a dark day for humanity, not just in the Middle East. I am
not in politics to indulge all those who are endlessly defeatist
. I like voting and we are going to win in Iraq.
Q29Lord Tomlinson: In your answer before last
you referred to the United Nations resolution and the all necessary
means but it also called upon all our European allies and everybody
else in the international community to be joining us in the work
that has to be done in relation to the post-conflict reconstruction
in Iraq and the work that has to be done in preparing for the
elections. How much effort are we putting into persuading our
allies about the imperative of doing that, particularly those
who were so insistent on second United Nations resolutions? Now
they have the resolution, are we succeeding in persuading them
to their international obligations?
Dr MacShane: It is not an automatic green light
but we are getting to amber. Some countries have distinct positions.
Some countries have elections in which the question of military
participation in Iraq was an election issue and we just have to
respect that. Spain, for example, is very active in Afghanistan
which releases other soldiers of countries that have the political
authority or will to go to be active with security forces in Iraq
to deploy there. This is such an extraordinary day on which so
much is happening with Mr Arafat's death and the Prime Minister's
visit to the US President. Generally, the new tone coming out
of European capitals, wherever people were on the question of
military force being used in Iraq a year, is that people want
to get to fair elections. The terms on which every country participates
are a matter of intense national debate and public opinion debate.
I would hope that people will look at the election results in
Australia and in the United States and realise that, however divisive
this issue was, in two big elections of two great, stable, liberal
democracies where the position was put very clearly to the people,
the views of governments that want to maintain the course of Iraq
were upheld. I would repeat my plea to all political forces in
this country to stop the wall to wall criticism of the government
and let us move forward to see if we can give the Iraqi people
a crack. My appeal to Newsnight, Channel 4 and the Today
programme is give us a month without very distinguished white,
British political figures, spokesmen, journalists and experts
and let us hear the voices of the people of Iraq. A lot of them
speak very good English and it is about time they were heard.
Q30Baroness Park of Monmouth: The EU is providing
80 million euros so far from the African peace facility to finance
the AU's mission in Darfur. Given that the money from the peace
facility cannot be used for the procurement of military equipment,
should further EU support be provide and, if so, how? Where does
the UN fit into all this?
Dr MacShane: Sudan undoubtedly is a very, very
pressing issue for all of the international community. Mr Reilly
is one of the experts from the Foreign Office on this. I do not
deal with it directly like Chris Mullin does. He has been there,
the Prime Minister has been there, the Foreign Secretary has been
there and the Secretary for International Development has been
there. In contrast with Rwanda, we have a very high level of political
engagement in Sudan. What we want to do principally is to help
encourage the African Union to accept its role there, to bump
up the number of troops that the AU have in the area. We can have
bilateral deals to send military equipment that the African Union
provides. We are sending some vehicles and Germany and the Netherlands
are providing communications. I would stress that Mr Barnier has
been there, Mr Fischer has been there and it is not just Britain.
All the European Union countries have Sudan as much on the front
pages as we have and want to ensure that every help is given but
it is a huge challenge of seeing if we can make African Union
engagement deliver the goods. If it is done bilaterally, that
probably is the best way.
Q31Baroness Park of Monmouth: I accept all that
but it has been made very clear so far that everyone is providing
what you might call support, vehicles, money to pay for troops
which are pretty important and all the infrastructure like helicopters
and so forth but in practice the African Union countries have
a mission of 1,000 or 1,500 men and unless they have some arms
they are going to be absolutely useless against the attacks of
the Sudanese. It seems to me that the way round would be for this
to become a joint AU/UN mission where that problem would be got
over.
Dr MacShane: I accept the point you are making.
I would not be quite as dismissive as that. We have had AU monitoring
missions elsewhere in Sudan, in the Nuba mountains, where the
simple fact of them turning up helps to stabilise the situation,
and there is a lot in Sudan that is coming from outside the country,
appears to be coming from inside the government itself. I accept
the general thrust that what we are doing now may not be enough,
may need review, may need the involvement of the UN. I think we
are seized of that. We are probably the country that is the most
active of all our EU partners on this and it is an enormous challenge.
We are successful with the British intervention in Sierra Leone;
France is facing very real problems in the Ivory Coast; and I
think Sudan may be the biggest problem yet of all. I do not want
to be panglossian and say that what we are doing is sufficient
unto the needs. We are working our way through this and I accept
fully that we may require a more robust response and one that
does involve the UN as a whole.
Q32Lord Lea of Crondall: Chairman, is this not
an excellent illustration of both the AU and EU struggling to
find their way? It is doing a job, the AU, and it is doing a job,
the EU, that would not have been possible four or five years ago,
but, as Lady Park's question indicated, it is really not perhaps
a very satisfactory job if we cannot provide military equipment
or whatever. Is this not an illustration of, on the one hand,
saying "We want the EU to do more, why is the EU not doing
more?" but it looks a big step to take if we were to think
that the EU would be able to do more—and I am talking about
the constitution and all the wider issues about EU competence.
I would be very interested to see how we can track—and we
are going to do a study next year on AU/EU, and this is perhaps
a good illustration of the balance and reciprocation between—the
balance of the EU creeping forward in its competence (in every
sense of the word "competence") and the AU creeping
forward in its competence (again, in ever sense of the word "competence".
Dr MacShane: Yes, but I would not ignore the
role and need for individual countries to be involved in areas
of their responsibility. It is right that Britain was involved
in Sierra Leone; it is right that France, operating under a UN
mandate, is there in the Ivory Coast—but, as the French
Ambassador told me last night, the problem is there that France
suddenly is seen as a colonial power.
Q33Lord Lea of Crondall: The EU is not seen
as a colonial power.
Dr MacShane: I am not quite sure whether just
changing the cap badges . . . Do not forget that the French soldiers
down there are wearing the blue beret of the UN, so just having
a different flash on your shoulder and a different colour beret
on your head does not protect you from people who want to do bad
things. But you are right to say that we are trying to work our
way forward on this. This is an area of some complexity. A problem
is that we have too many European Union countries, in my judgment,
that do not pay a fair share for their own defence requirements.
My firm view—and I have said this on the record in other
languages, in other countries—is that two per cent of GDP
should be the minimum entry ticket to be taken seriously as a
defence player. I never listen to any country's minister opining
on European defence policy unless they pay that 2 per cent. I
have to listen to an awful lot of speeches but I do not really
take them that seriously unless they put their money where their
mouth is. That is sufficiently diplomatic, is it not?
Mr Barrow: It is sufficiently ministerial!
Dr MacShane: On this, there is a big role for
Africa. We are actually asking Africa to take a lot of responsibility.
We are asking both Mr Mbeki in South Africa and the President
of Nigeria to be here, there and everywhere solving these problems.
But I would draw the Committee's attention, in conclusion, to
the fact that the Prime Minister has said that in his presence
in the G8, which overlaps with our presence in the EU, he wants
to focus on Africa, Africa and global warming, and I am very excited
about this. I think his Commission on Africa will make very interesting
and constructive proposals. It does show British foreign policy
being engaged, being multilateral, trying to deal with huge problems
which are not just problems in Africa. In my constituency, as
a constituency MP, I have to deal every week with asylum seekers
from African countries or transiting through Africa, so they actually
impinge domestically in every corner of Europe. Europe's security,
peace, harmony, stability does require a full-hearted European
engagement in Africa, and I very much hope that the Prime Minister
next year and Britain next year will be able to offer some clear
pointers.
Q34Lord Maclennan of Rogart: The Foreign Secretary
said last night, after the showing of the Fergal Keane film illustrating
the depressingly brutal Sudanese government resettlements taking
place, that this was perhaps the hardest piece of evidence there
could be that the Sudanese government was actually acting contrarily
to its undertakings. It was also mentioned that there was to be
a meeting of the Security Council in Nairobi, but some concerns
were expressed that there was not a solid view amongst the members
about what was the proper response to these continuing forced
resettlements. Is there at least a common view amongst members
of the European Union and will that be co-ordinated and forcefully
expressed?
Dr MacShane: Yes. I think all European Union
countries are concerned about forced resettlements. There is a
lot of concern about the activities of some parts of the Sudanese
government's military apparatus and those have been conveyed very
forcibly on visits by Joschka Fischer the German Foreign Minister
and Michel Barnier the French Foreign Minster and by ourselves.
The meeting in Nairobi—and I think it is appropriate that
it happens sur place, as it were, in the region—will
obviously have to deal with these. Mr Keane's reports—which
I did not see last night, but I also saw a very powerful but shorter
one the night before—I think are important bits of that
evidence. There is no doubt in everybody's mind that the Sudanese
government needs to do more to bring all of its military apparatus
under control, but also we have to look at who is financing the
rebels, who is providing the logistics for the rebels from outside
Sudan. I just want to gently suggest that simply latching on to
blaming the government may not be the whole of the problem. But,
you are quite right, this is right across Europe now. The people
have very much on their minds the Rwanda memory, where European
governments did not engage to prevent the genocide, so I welcome
that.
Q35Chairman: Dr MacShane, thank you very much.
There is pressure on your time and ours, as I think you know.
There are some other questions about our, the EU's, neighbours,
Turkey, Belarus and Ukraine. Perhaps I could ask you to be kind
enough to respond to those in writing. Whilst we are talking neighbours,
Russia is not mentioned there. The Sub-Committee noted the postponement
of the EU/Russian summit. There are suggestions in reports today
that it was not altogether a postponement but rather Russian wanted
to get out of it, using the change in Commission as an excuse,
and reports of hostility towards OSCE. That may be something you
want to deal with in writing or you may just like to say to the
Committee what the Government's view of the present position with
relations with Russia and the EU is.
Dr MacShane: The summit was postponed principally,
I think, because we could not send a Commission president to it.
It would be fair to say that some of the discussions with Russia
in some areas, the four spaces that we want to discuss, were not
advancing completely as smoothly as all countries would have wished.
I met Mr Putin's specialist advisor to the EU the other week and
I think things were very, very positive. The fact remains that
Russia is an absolutely vital and central partner for the European
Union, and we need to have engagement with them, but it is better
for these things to be properly prepared. I never weep and gnash
my teeth if my officials tell me that a meeting has been cancelled.
I think sometimes formalistic meetings for the sake of formalistic
publicity shoots is not necessarily the best way forward. So,
yes, there are serious discussions with Russia, some of them prompted
by new EU Member States, and I personally see no great catastrophe
in waiting a little while to keep talking with the Russians. And
when we have our summit, as we will—it is in the interests
of everybody to have it—we will come up with good language
and a good agreement. In the meantime, the bilateral relations,
frankly, just get stronger and stronger.
Chairman: Thank you very much indeed. Thank you,
Mr Reilly and Mr Barrow.
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