Examination of Witnesses (Questions 460-479)
JOHN HEALEY
MP AND
MR PAUL
GERRARD
2 FEBRUARY 2005
Q460 Norman Lamb: Could you investigate
and do a note for us?
Mr Gerrard: I can ask Mr Hewitt
for some further information on that and I am happy to see what
we can provide on that.
Q461 Mr Cousins: Just to follow that,
how many scanners have you actually got?
John Healey: For tobacco?
Q462 Mr Cousins: Yes?
John Healey: We have got scanners
deployed generally. We have a certain amount of mobile equipment
but generally we have scanners deployed in 14 of the most significant
ports where we see the most regular route for tobacco smuggling.
Q463 Mr Cousins: So you have got 14,
as it were, permanent ones and how many mobile ones?
Mr Gerrard: I do not know the
precise number off the top of my head.
Q464 Mr Cousins: Could you let us know?
Mr Gerrard: Yes.[4]
Q465 Mr Cousins: Do you still operate
a car pool on which people draw to drive around the country to
make brief appearances at airports and ports?
Mr Gerrard: We have official vehicles
that are obviously used—
Q466 Mr Cousins: How many cars do you
have in the car pool?
Mr Gerrard: I do not know.
Q467 Mr Cousins: Perhaps you would let
us know.
Mr Gerrard: I can do, yes.
Q468 Mr Cousins: One of the suggestions
has been that there should be a licensing system which would secure
the whole tobacco network. Is that something that you are considering?
Mr Gerrard: It is something that
we have discussed with the tobacco manufacturer that has raised
it. I think the point is that the nature of the illicit market
and the criminal organisations that Customs and Excise deal with
means that they operate outside that licensing regime. Those who
want to be in the licensing regime would be in it. These individuals
operate outside it. The whole illicit tobacco market is just that;
it is illicit from start to finish.
Q469 Mr Cousins: But the licensing regime
would presumably be accompanied by very severe penalties for people
operating outside the licensing regime?
Mr Gerrard: I am not clear how
the licensing regime would impact when counterfeit cigarettes
are brought into the country if they are brought into the country
illicitly and therefore they are outside legitimate controls.
Q470 Mr Cousins: But the point is that
the licensing regime provides a secure route which is the basis
of detecting the people who are not operating through those secure
routes?
Mr Gerrard: As I said, the nature
of the illicit tobacco market is such that they would operate
outside those secure routes. I am not clear, having looked at
it, how that would help when dealing with organised criminality
who are not part of that licensing regime but would quite easily
get product from this.
Q471 Mr Cousins: Are you operating primarily
a regulatory system or a forensic system and one that depends
on investigation? Which is your primary approach?
Mr Gerrard: When tackling the
illicit market in cigarettes, which is illicit from start to finish,
we engage in a law enforcement effort which involves both detection
and intelligence and very sophisticated criminal investigations.
Q472 Mr Cousins: How many bodies do you
have committed to this?
Mr Gerrard: Over 2,200.
Q473 Mr Cousins: And how does that compare
with 2000-01 when the number of prosecutions was twice as great
as it was last year?
Mr Gerrard: We have 2,200 at the
moment with an illicit market at 15% and in 2000 we had 1,200
with an illicit market of 21%.
John Healey: But as I think we
have tried to stress, simply looking at prosecutions is only part
of the picture. During the first three years of the tobacco strategy
we also disrupted 190 tobacco smuggling gangs, not necessarily
showing up in the prosecutions figures but playing a part in reducing
the market share of the operations which are feeding the illicit
tax-free market in this country.
Q474 Mr Cousins: Yes but we have been
given these figures about disrupting gangs. It is not entirely
clear what each of these units of disruption of gangs actually
means.
Mr Gerrard: When we disrupt a
gang we put that criminal organisation out of business for a period
of time. The length of that period depends on what other action
we take in terms of criminal prosecution or, more importantly,
when tackling organised criminality getting after the money and
seizing the criminal benefits. If you take away the money and
get after the money that is what really hurts serious organised
criminality.
Q475 Mr Cousins: You mean outside the
measure of prosecutions there is another process going on which
is monetary in its approach and completely separate?
Mr Gerrard: No, it is linked to
criminal prosecutions but one criminal prosecution could result
in assets being confiscated from a criminal of £2 million.
The Proceeds of Crime Act is a vital tool in this because what
it does is it allows law enforcement agencies to get after the
criminals' benefits.
Q476 Mr Cousins: Perhaps you would be
able to give the Committee some information which would shed some
light on this?
Mr Gerrard: I can give an answer
now.
Q477 Norman Lamb: You do disrupt sometimes
without prosecuting and there are concerns, are there not, amongst
some people subjected to this who claim they are innocent that
this circumvents the proper process of enabling them to defend
themselves in court?
John Healey: It is certainly true
that some of our action will be civil action rather than criminal
action but it is also the case that where any sort of action like
that is taken, Customs have to be able to stand up the evidence
in the case that the activity was breaking the tax law. People
in those cases have the right to an independent review of the
seizures within Customs and they also ultimately have the right
to challenge those seizures through the magistrates' courts or
through the adjudicator.
Q478 Norman Lamb: But it is after the
event?
John Healey: Yes it is after the
event but there are rights, safeguards and appeal processes in
place.
Q479 Angela Eagle: How much money have
you seized under the Proceeds of Crime Act?
Mr Gerrard: I do not have the
figure to hand but I could certainly provide it to you with a
note.[5]
Angela Eagle: I think that would be helpful.
4 See Ev 138 Back
5
See Ev 138 Back
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