Examination of Witnesses (Questions 120
- 130)
WEDNESDAY 4 FEBRUARY 2004
FORD MOTOR
COMPANY AND
MATSUSHITA EUROPE
Q120 Mr Evans: This is an interesting
point. Are you asking, therefore, Europe as compared to Asia and
all the other competitors globally that when either a rule or
regulation comes in from Europe or a directive and it gets gilded
here that there is a red tape cost assessment, so that you could
then sit down and say, "This is how much it would cost our
industry if we were to bring this regulation through," so
that you could then see how anti-competitive it is going to be?
Is that what you are putting forward?
Mr Gardiner: Yes, it is. It is
not just red tape, it is not just a bureaucratic situation, it
is also the actual cost to industry itself and the real cost benefit
of analysis that if we introduce this legislation what is its
impact on industry. We support and we understand the need for
improved policy in terms of social and environmental considerations
but at the same time I think there needs to be a proper assessment
of the likely impact on the industrial base or the economic base
of Europe when these policies are being framed at the European
level.
Q121 Mr Evans: Are you constantly
lobbying as well governments at a national level and the European
Union to lift certain rules or regulations that they have imposed
and then going to them and saying, "This is how much it costs
us to keep this in place"?
Mr Gardiner: Yes. It is not so
much lifting because obviously by the time EU law is transposed
it is there basically, but we do try to raise awareness of the
likely costs and implications. Again, it is not just the cost
factor, it is also an impact on the economic viability of the
companies. We do try to get that message across, yes, at the European
level and also through national governments.
Mr Reinhart: We do the same. We
have our Brussels office to make the lobbying process to the Brussels
bureaucracy, I should say. We are a member of all the national
industry associations. Through that we are raising the questions.
It is sometimes difficult to calculate the true amount which it
costs. However, I can tell you the motor industry, all European
industry, has to employ armies of people to make all these documents,
statistics and so forth. This is compared to Asia a great disadvantage.
Q122 Mr Evans: We have to employ
armies of people to invent these regulations!
Mr Reinhart: Yes, but then if
Asia is importing merchandise which is cheaper then we are losing
again. It is a vicious circle, you know.
Chairman: I think you are one of the
army of people who are employed to do that actually.
Q123 Albert Owen: Going back to the
links between the universities and the productive economy, is
there an opportunity, in your opinion, for the UK higher education
sector to interact more positively with industry and is there,
if you like, an unexplored potential there and is it the fault
of industry, Government or even the universities that this does
not happen?
Mr Gardiner: Obviously just speaking
from a Ford perspective, I think there is much more integration
there. If I could move slightly away from obviously quite a lot
that we are doing down in South Wales, we have a prime example
out in Dagenham of our centre for engineering and manufacturing
excellence (CEME), which is a joint venture between national government,
the London Development Agency, central government, the local education
authorities and Ford, trying to create a centre whereby we go
from everything from basic skills right the way through eventually
to post-graduate education and research and development of that
side.
Q124 Albert Owen: So who pioneered
that? Was it everybody sitting back and saying, "We need
to integrate," and all of you coming together under an umbrella
of partnership or somebody driving it?
Mr Gardiner: It was initially,
if you like, a Ford-inspired idea that we then developed in conjunction
with the LDA and the educational authorities in the Dagenham area.
The basic reason for that was, number 1, we needed educational
capability in the area to supply the new Dagenham diesel centre
with the training capability, we needed to train our engineers,
but also as part of the whole regeneration in the Dagenham area.
There was a social responsibility for the local community as well,
where we could see that we could make a significant difference
together with our other partners at CEME. CEME only came into
effect last September so it is still very early days but it has
been a very successful partnership. So in that sense of a private/public
educational initiative I do not actually think there is anywhere
else quite like ECIME in the UK at the moment but it is perhaps
a standard bearer for things to come. But as my colleagues have
said, in terms of South Wales we have got strong links in education
and that is also fostered in other parts of the UK where we have
manufacturing or research and development facilities. As we were
saying, we have around 500-600 employees at Ford who are doing
vocational degree courses at any one time, so it is important.
Links with universities and education are important to our business
here.
Q125 Albert Owen: Before I ask Panasonic
to answer the same question, do you think the UK governments can
give greater incentives? Do you think they understand what you
have just said and are pioneering it alongside you?
Mr Gardiner: They have certainly
been helping us at CEME, both national and local government has
been helping on that front. Our experience at CEME has been very
positive.
Mr Reinhart: In principle I can
repeat what has been said—
Q126 Mr Caton: Could you just expand
a little bit, because you have told us about the relationship
between Swansea Institute and Ford at Bridgend? Could you tell
us a little bit about how that happened, because I think that
might again be instructive for our Committee?
Mr Evans: It is quite a sort of
internal development thing. We made a decision several years ago
to sort of grow our own as well as far as engineers are concerned
and we went to Swansea and Pontypridd and Cardiff and asked them
to bid for them presenting us with a manufacturing/engineering
degree and each university and facility came to talk to us about
what they could do for us. So that is really where it started
as far as Swansea was concerned. Similarly with Newport on the
electronics side. We have got other initiatives, of course, where
the WDA and the Welsh Assembly have been very supportive. We have
on a smaller scale the Waterson Technology Centre who are really
keen to take on our leading edge training that we have at the
plant and share it with small and medium enterprises. So there
are initiatives at all different levels.
Q127 Mr Caton: But if that is what
you are saying, it is very much the industry which has driven
the development or initiated it?
Mr Evans: So far as our model
was concerned, yes.
Mr Reinhart: I think in principle
I can repeat what my colleague from Ford said. There are already
some links and some dialogues between industry or the private
sector and the public sector but this needs to be, as I said earlier
today, intensified. If we should be able to educate people who
can cope with the future technologies, which not only in our industry
but in others as well is going digital and again this is not a
Welsh affair, this is a global affair. We will have a lot of job
repetition between all our locations around the world and we need
to have such internationally minded engineers and managers who
can manage such a process. This cannot be done internally. Of
course as an industry we are doing internally, yes. We are providing
and offering a lot of education to our engineers and other workforce.
This needs also to ask the public sector to collaborate and to
have a dialogue, a frequent dialogue between both parties, public
and private. We will take initiative, of course, but we also expect
public institutions, governments and so forth to be ready not
only for discussion but to take actions.
Q128 Mr Edwards: Could I just ask
you how receptive you find the universities in the United Kingdom
about research and the way they collaborate with you and do you
find any difference between the relationship between the universities
in Britain and say the universities in Germany and America?
Mr Reinhart: A good question.
I have to say I should not reply to this question because I have
no details. I have not had the talks and dialogues with universities.
May I ask one of my staff to reply on this.
Mr Jones: My name is Mike Jones.
I am director of human resource and corporate planning in Cardiff.
Going back to your question about the links, I think over the
many years, just sort of going beyond the university question,
from the time I have been with the company (which has been the
last 13 or 14 years) we have had links with schools too because
I think it starts that early. The visits that we receive from
schools over the years with literally children up to graduate
age, we have enjoyed that relationship. Maybe we should do more
and I think it has waned slightly in the last few years, but certainly
the response from the universities when we do talk to them has
been very positive. I have no experience of German universities
but certainly local universities we have actually been involved
with Cardiff Business School also and been there to lecture and
receive lectures obviously as well. So my personal feeling is
that there has been a very positive response from the universities.
Developing our engineers and obviously sponsoring graduates and
so on, we have done that as well. American and German universities
I cannot comment on, but certainly the relationship has been very
positive. There is a deep desire, I think, to participate but
I do not think we have developed it as far and as wide as we could.
Your question about what can Government do about that—certainly,
as Mr Reinhart said, the dialogue now with the public and private
sector especially, if I may say, through the Welsh Assembly and
the Welsh Electronics Forum, which we are very active in, that
has certainly helped us a lot and I think a lot more can and will
be done. But certainly the universities are very pro-active where
they can be, yes.
Mr Gardiner: We actually have
a very strong relationship with the universities throughout the
UK. We have heard some comments in terms of Wales, but if we just
look at some of the postgraduate provisions we have, we have technical
partners at Loughborough University. They are our designated lead
institution for the MSC and automotive systems engineering and
also provide PhDs. The University of Hertfordshire, again engineering
design manufacture. Bradford, Cardiff City University, quality
improvement and system reliability. Business schools—we
have worked with Henley College and with Warwick Business School
as well. I think Bob has got some other comments he would like
to make.
Mr Murphy: Just personal experience.
I have worked in Germany and Ford have very strong links with
Arken University just outside Cologne and Arken are very pro-active,
no different to many of the universities that John has just mentioned
in the UK. In the US, when I worked in the US we had got very
strong links with Michigan University, Michigan State University,
Wayne State University and again very pro-active. Again, no different
to the UK universities. One area I think we could improve on,
and I think sometimes the universities wait for us to be pro-active,
is on the management side of it. Obviously we talk technical and
we talk engineering all the time when people talk about universities
but sometimes I think the universities look to us for the vision,
for the changing needs of the organisation. What are the future
supervisor's skills going to be? What is the future mechanical
and electrical skilled person going to need? Because these skills
are changing all the time, technology is changing and sometimes
I think that we could be a little bit more pro-active from the
university side of life in the UK.
Q129 Mr Evans: Looking at your links
with the higher education, can you just name one either process,
product or technique that you have adopted because of your close
liaisons with higher education?
Mr Murphy: Lean manufacturing
I would say was one. Was that purely driven by a university? I
would say it is 50:50 driven by competition, ie our Japanese competitors
have really sort of implemented lean and set the benchmark, but
we have had major assistance from the Cardiff Business School
on lean manufacturing, very, very supportive, and a lot of the
techniques that the Cardiff Business School has educated the plant
on we have adopted.
Q130 Mr Evans: Anything Panasonic
can name, just one thing?
Mr Jones: I cannot think of anything
offhand as a specific example but certainly, as Ford mentioned,
about the relationship at various levels, not just in terms of
R&D but the needs of, for example, management and supervision.
I think that is a very good point and we have benefited greatly
from the training and the development that we have done with people,
which we tend to forget, rather than the technology. So I think
we have grown as a company through these relationships and I think,
yes, we have driven a lot of that, but I cannot think of a specific
example.
Chairman: I think we have covered the
ground very well. Thank you very much for your answers and your
patience and I hope you remain in Wales for a long time to come
and create a lot more jobs.
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