Examination of Witness (Questions 60-79)
20 OCTOBER 2004
Chief Constable Terence Grange
Q60 Mr Edwards: What is your view of
that?
Chief Constable Grange: I think
that, properly structured, most forces could look to investigate
all the crimes that are reported to them. We set out 20-odd years
ago to differentiate between the minor crime, which we did not
have time to investigate, and major crime, which we would investigate.
The problem is that it is the minor crime that winds up members
of the public. We have long held the view that if you can investigate
every crime, you do it. Because we do it, we tend to detect more
offences.
Q61 Mr Edwards: Finally, what do you
think about the impact of serious and organised crime on lower
level and acquisitive crime in your area?
Chief Constable Grange: If people
are selling drugs and getting people involved in drugs, then inevitably
they are going to need money to buy more drugs. The way they get
money is either off the benefits system or by becoming involved
in low level crime—stealing, primarily shoplifting, break-ins
and car theft. It is a circle that just sticks together. People
will supply what you want to use. Once you are addicted to it,
in order to get it, you will actually commit crime if there is
no other way of getting the drugs.
Q62 Mr Edwards: Would you say that about
70% of crime is drug-related?
Chief Constable Grange: That figure
is quoted regularly. I am not sure that is the case in my force
area. I know it is quoted regularly across England and Wales.
I am not sure of the provenance of that claim.
Q63 Julie Morgan: I am going to ask you
about reassuring the public. I think you mentioned at the beginning
of the session about how you take into account the views of the
public in deciding your priorities. I wondered if you could tell
us, from the surveys and consultation you have done, what the
public thinks you are doing well in Dyfed-Powys and what they
think you are not doing so well. Do you have that sort of evidence?
Chief Constable Grange: Yes. They
are usually very content with the way we investigate the crimes
they report and the way they deal with the minor incidents that
we attend and can deal with. They are not happy about visible
uniformed patrol on the streets, foot patrol.
Q64 Julie Morgan: There is not enough?
Chief Constable Grange: There
is not enough. Certain of our customers are definitely not happy
about the way we deal with speeding. Certainly the motorcyclists
that come into the force area positively dislike the way we deal
with it. Conversely, our public do not think we deal with it harshly
enough. They are not happy about our answering the `phones—hence,
a single communications centre. With 50-odd police stations, I
cannot answer the phones at all the police stations; that is just
not feasible
Q65 Julie Morgan: Do you mean some phones
are not answered or that they have to ring for a long time?
Chief Constable Grange: Yes. For
instance, at Crosshands Police Station there are eight officers
and one external telephone line. If you pick it up, nobody else
can talk. If you have a station with four or five people, and
primarily that is what I have, and they are out on patrol, there
is no-one inside to answer the phone. In any event, the station
is closed after 12 p.m. or 1 a.m. If you phone at 1 a.m. to that
particular station, the phone will not be answered. The smaller
the station, the more likely it is the phone is not answered.
The way that we have been encouraged to deal with it, and the
way to do it, is to have a facility that means you know the public
will get an answer, and that is one place where all the calls
go.
Q66 Julie Morgan: Is there anything else
they are dissatisfied with through the customer surveys?
Chief Constable Grange: It is
usually to do with the lack of police presence; the feeling that
their particular problem has not been resolved by the police;
an over-emphasis on dealing with speeding. Most of the letters
I receive are about people speeding through villages. That is
odd because the second highest complaint is the fact that we overdo
speeding enforcement. Primarily they want to see more police officers,
and they want to see them on foot. They will happily accept community
support officers.
Q67 Julie Morgan: Is there any trend
in the way the public view you as a police force?
Chief Constable Grange: The unhappiness
about lack of a visible police presence is increasing. More and
more, they want foot patrols. Given that we police two-thirds
of Wales and the villages are miles and miles apart, it is almost
impossible to provide a visible foot presence that people like.
The other thing is that even if you are there, the people are
either at work or it is dark and they cannot see you. It is an
interesting issue. What people want is built round what they believe
they used to have. It is true that back in the Forties and Fifties
there was a bobby in every village. There is a reason for that
and that is that society was completely different. We are recreating
that quietly but we cannot do it for every village. We are looking
at working with post offices in Ceredigion and Powys, ten of them,
to use the post offices as staging posts for people to talk to
the police, so that the post office can be used as a place where
the public go to deal with firearms licensing, issues to do with
their cars, or to leave a message for the local police officer.
We are going to see how that works for us.
Q68 Julie Morgan: You did mention the
surveys you have done in Carmarthen. Is what you have been telling
us about the results of those surveys or is there something specific
about Carmarthen?
Chief Constable Grange: We have
done surveys across the force area. What we have in Carmarthen
is a citizens' panel of 1,000 people, which is run by the county
council, but we contribute to it and we get questions about issues
into that citizens' panel. We also run focus groups in all the
counties. We have attended the Royal Welsh Show, the United Counties
Show and the Pembroke Show and set up a stall and run a questionnaire
on three or four days of the show, inviting people to discuss
issues about policing. We are now looking to do the same in the
major shopping centre.
Q69 Julie Morgan: Do you get a good response?
Do people want to talk to you?
Chief Constable Grange: We did
not the first time because they put tee-shirts on and they could
have been anybody. On the second day, the tee-shirts said "Dyfed-Powys
Police" and people came and talked to us. We learnt quickly
because if they think you are just doing a survey, they walk straight
past you.
Q70 Julie Morgan: Could you tell us what
use you make of the extended police family in Dyfed-Powys and
what you think is the value of the new forms of policing, including
community wardens?
Chief Constable Grange: It would
be true to say that the officers in Llanelli love the community
support officers. I have had bids for CSOs from the other three
divisions. Over the next two years, they will all get them, subject
to the Government providing the funding. In Carmarthen we have
wardens working in a couple of parts of the area. Through the
Chief Executive, I have an inspector working in the Community
Safety Department of Carmarthen County Council's offices and he
is developing community safety planning with the Council. They
work together. When the new radio system comes on-stream, we are
looking at them having that as well. We have training arrangements
and firm links with all the licensed doormen in the force area.
We have not gone down the accredited scheme because for us, given
the make-up of the area, it looks a less enticing prospect than
it would be in a major city, but we are working with them.
Their communications systems are linked into ours. For instance,
in Llanelli every doorman is known to all the CSOs, as are all
their mobile `phone numbers, so that we can actually get round
them very quickly. Where there is benefit in widening the police
family, we do that. National Parks' rangers are in the station,
the new build at Brecon. We own the building in which they work.
We have a relationship with them that I witnessed myself during
the summer, which is utterly comprehensive. It incorporates
the Royal Navy Training Establishment on the Beacons as well.
When they turn up for a week's leadership training, the 30 trainees
are given the numbers of cars we are looking for. When they are
our exercising on the Beacons, if they see one of these cars,
we receive a call. The result of that kind of thinking by the
particular constable who devised it is that car theft on the Beacons
virtually ceased this summer. We are willing to work with anybody,
provided they are willing to work with us.
Q71 Julie Morgan: Do you think this has
had an impact on public opinion, on the feel for crime?
Chief Constable Grange: Certainly
on the Beacons it has. In Llanelli, the public feel a great deal
happier. The first night we had extra resources in Llanelli, I
went down there myself on patrol. It was fascinating to see how
happy all the people who were out intending to drink all night
were to see uniforms around. They actually preferred it; they
felt safer. That was an interesting lesson. Instinctively you
think they would rather you were not around but that is not so;
they want you there. Occasionally you have an argument with them,
but, again, that is life.
Q72 Julie Morgan: Your long-term strategy
then is to use as much of the extended police family as you think
appropriate and go on using it and increase it?
Chief Constable Grange: We have
quite consciously placed an inspector with the Carmarthen County
Council to help develop community safety with them. Each and everything
that the Council does and that we do is built around community
safety planning. Mark James, the Chief Executive, and I meet regularly
to pursue the agenda. It is the same with Powys. Where there are
benefits in working together, we are doing that. Usually it is
the constables that see the opportunity, ask if they can do it,
we say "yes" and they get on with it. Down in Pembroke
on two or three estates we have arrangements with the Council's
officers—environmental health, housing, social services—where
we go in to assist the residents to sort out their problem, but
they sort out the problem. It is their problem and you cannot
resolve it in the end. You can put a palliative on it. If it means
putting neighbourhood wardens in for a while or permanently is
a solution, then I would help fund it if nobody else did. I am
all for widening this; the more people engaged, the better.
Q73 Mrs Williams: What relationship do
you have with Victim Support in your force area?
Chief Constable Grange: We have
currently two victim support schemes, though I gather national
Victim Support wants to turn it into one. I meet with the people
concerned twice a year. They work with our officers. They are
constantly questioning whether or not we could do more, which
is right and proper. We have just received funding from the Government
for a witness support scheme alongside Victim Support, and we
are developing that. It is a pretty good relationship. Their view
is that we could always do more. My view is that they are right
but we have to find ways of doing it within our budget.
Q74 Hywel Williams: We talked earlier
on about looking at performance data and how that informs the
way you develop the service. To what central government departments
or organisations do you have to provide data in order to justify
your performance? What sort of effect does that have on your workload
and how you do your work, in terms of costs and resources?
Chief Constable Grange: I provide
information to umpteen departments in the Home Office, and usually
one department does not know that the other department has asked
for it; the Policing Standards Unit; the Audit Commission; Her
Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary; and the Health and Safety
Executive. I think there are nine.
Q75 Hywel Williams: Does that have an
impact on the amount of money you have to spend?
Chief Constable Grange: My Corporate
Services Department has a couple of staff members who spend virtually
all their time gathering this information to pass it on to various
governmental departments.
Q76 Hywel Williams: Does the data you
have to collect influence your strategy because you are having
to tick certain boxes?
Chief Constable Grange: No. I
am paid by my police authority to provide the policing for which
they ask. The Home Office wants statistics. Occasionally what
the Home Office wants and what my police authority wants are in
conflict. When that occurs, my policy authority wins. In gathering
the statistics for ASR, we are slowly but surely automating the
whole thing so that, for instance when there is a crime, that
is recorded, and the system starts adding everything to it. If
it goes through a cautioning process or goes to court, the outcomes
are added to it and the information is all automatically gathered
and sent. We are doing our level best to move away from having
loads of people laboriously gathering statistics to hand on to
people. Our force is very well automated and we are looking for
even more automation. Certainly the Government's National Management
Information System is destined to help, when it goes live. The
gathering of the information does not affect the proprieties or
how we police at all.
Q77 Hywel Williams: The chain is as you
have just described, which will improve your operational performance
eventually.
Chief Constable Grange: The more
we can make things automatic, the better. We are striving for,
and I hope we will have it by next April, the information technology
to gather all the information about what every single one of my
officers is doing. The only way you will have a performance culture
is if you know what every individual is doing. When we have that
and it is automated so that they do not have to fill out a single
form—and the bug there is that they have always had to fill
the form out and that takes time—then you are able to ask
questions through the supervisors about what everyone is doing
to contribute to what the local sector inspector is trying to
achieve, the division is trying to achieve and the force is trying
achieve. You must do it in a way that nobody has to do anything
other than say, "I have arrested somebody. I will do the
arrest paperwork". That is required because it is going to
court or for some other reason. Everything else is done automatically
for them.
Q78 Mr Williams: I was at the police
station at Llandrindod on Saturday and was given an example by
the inspector there. If an officer went out to a house where there
was a report of an incident, even if he made a professional judgment
that there was nothing of concern there, he had to fill out a
form with a matrix of everybody who was in that house, from the
smallest baby to the oldest person, almost as a defensive type
of operation, so that if something happened in the future, no
accusation could be made that the police had not attended and
made a judgment. It seemed to me that we are not allowing the
police to use their judgment on a particular case. They seemed
overwhelmed with paperwork. What do you say about that?
Chief Constable Grange: I think
that is case-dependent. If we send an officer to an incident where
domestic violence is alleged, I would expect that when the officer
returned, he or she would be able to provide information about
everybody who was in the house, including any children, the state
of the children, the condition of the rooms they were in, and
anything else that might raise concerns about the child that other
people needed to know. I think that is right and appropriate.
That is not defensive at all; that is about doing your job properly.
If you do attend something like domestic violence, the odds are
it will not be the first time it has occurred and it will not
be the last. The way you deal with that is by gathering information
so that you have a really good breadth and depth of knowledge
about that family or that group that can assist either you, if
we are the right way of dealing with it, or the local social services,
or others if they are the right way of dealing with that problem.
You will only do that if you gather the information. The history
of child abuse across the country is that police officers attend
incidents and do notice the children are in a shocking condition
or are being abused. I want that information. I want in-depth
information, particularly if you are sent somewhere where there
are allegations of violence to a partner occurring, or violence
or neglect of children. If you are merely going there to give
them some information, then I do not think that occurs. I would
be interested to see that paperwork.
Q79 Mr Williams: I will ask the inspector.
Chief Constable Grange: I will
do that, too.
| 
