Examination of Witness (Questions 320-339)
30 NOVEMBER 2004
Mr Malcolm King
Q320 Mr Caton: Yes.
Mr King: I think I would wait
for the outcome of the work that is going on. There is a clear
recognition throughout the police service that that does need
to be factored in, that it is pointless placing any importance
on local policing priorities without being able to measure them,
but, like the measurement of antisocial behaviour, it is taking
a while to thrash out exactly how that is going to be done in
a sensible way.
Q321 Mr Caton: Going back to your submission,
you do seem to have a concern. You talk about the importance of
a national performance framework but then you say that it is important
that it "should not inhibit the capacity of authorities and
forces to provide policing services that are tailored to the diverse
needs of their local communities." It seems a very important
point. I wonder if you can see how this balance can best be achieved
in practice.
Mr King: I suppose it would be
possible to argue that we achieve a relatively good balance at
the moment. I think the fear is, as has been shown throughout
history, that larger bodies and more central bodies will tend
to feel they ought to have more control. There is always a struggle
between devolved management, devolved powers and those at the
centre, and I suppose those who are at the outer reaches are always
going to be anxious that those at the centre are not going to
do what they normally do, which is take power unto themselves.
Mr Caton: Thank you very much.
Q322 Mr Edwards: Could I bring you back
to devolution now. You say that you believe the Assembly should
have more powers in respect of policing in Wales. Could you tell
us what you think the advantages of this would be?
Mr King: Mostly in terms of making
sure the key public agendas in Wales are linked in effectively.
For instance, the role of health in drug dependency is absolutely
vital: if the health part of it falls down, then we are struggling
with a revolving-door syndrome with drug addicts. Given how much
crime is generated through the abuse of drugs, that is enormously
important. Getting a good picture of what is happening through
alcohol misuse, for instance, again is a hugely important issue,
which police forces cannot do alone: there needs to be other agencies
in there who are going to be equally effective at dealing with
the effects of that.
Q323 Mr Edwards: Do you see any difficulties
in devolving some of those areas to the Assembly?
Mr King: Devolving . . .
Q324 Mr Edwards: The areas you talk about
and any others.
Mr King: The areas I talked about
are already largely devolved to the Assembly. It is a question
really of how we make sure the priorities we have within the police
service are fully linked in with those of the other public services.
Q325 Mr Edwards: Do you think the Assembly
should fund the police in Wales?
Mr King: They do, of course, already.
About one-third of it comes through the grant which comes from
the Assembly. Because the larger grant comes from the Home Office,
both within England and in Wales, it always surprises me how little
both the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and the Welsh Assembly
Government want for their money, the sort of oversight that they
seem to me to neglect. If I were to give a couple of hundred million
pounds to something, I would want to have a good old look at how
it was being spent. I do not think in England or Wales there is
enough attention given to that; I think there is an assumption,
because the Home Office is the primary department, that that is
sufficient. I think there is evidence that the community safety
agenda has not been joined up sufficiently, both in England or
Wales. For instance, the provision of neighbourhood wardens and
the development of community support officers was not an example
of joined-up government; it was an example of not very joined
up government, I would have said. I would welcome both departments
being more involved in policing.
Q326 Mr Edwards: Is this an example of
what you have called "considerable confusion in practice"—
in the delivery of police services—between Westminster and
Cardiff?
Mr King: Considerable confusion?
I think there has not been an encouragement for either the ODPM
or the Welsh Assembly to be involved in the more detailed policies
of policing.
Q327 Mr Edwards: In paragraph 5.4 of
your evidence you note several examples of Welsh issues being
overlooked by Westminster departments in considering policing
policy and other examples of poor communication (for example,
the Code of Conduct for Authority members, and notice of meetings).
What is the practical impact of this on the work of police authorities
and forces and the effective delivery of police services in Wales?
Mr King: Two or three of the examples
I have given have not exactly been earth-shattering, and I do
not think we feel they get in the way of our business on a daily
basis. However, another example I gave was on the PFI credits,
which in North Wales are substantial, for which we have not yet
received approval from the Welsh Assembly Government. They have
not put money aside in the way that they have in England for the
development PFI schemes. So we have had our first PFI scheme,
which has been very successful in delivering the division headquarters
and the forensic capabilities which we now have at St Asaph, but
PFI 2, as we call it, the second phase of the capital programme
for police buildings in North Wales, although it has been agreed
in the Home Office has not been agreed here in the Welsh Assembly.
Q328 Mr Edwards: There are proposals
to establish public-private partnership for the forensic services.
Where does most of your forensic work go in North Wales policing?
Mr King: I am not sure. I think
most of the forensic work now, given that we have considerable
forensic capability in North Wales, is actually done here.
Q329 Mr Edwards: Is that done privately
or through the forensic science service?
Mr King: We have a suitable number
of forensic staff here. I know we use laboratories in England.
Q330 Mrs Williams: There is one in Lancashire,
is there not?
Mr King: That is right, in the
north-west.
Q331 Mrs Williams: Is it Chorley?
Mr King: Yes. But I would have
to research that a bit further.
Q332 Chairman: Could I expand on a question
Mr Edwards asked about the considerable confusion. In your
written statement you talked about "considerable confusion
in practice in both Cardiff and Westminster" and I wonder
if you could give us any concrete examples of that. We have not
really come across that yet.
Mr King: The key one for us in
North Wales has been the issue of PFI credits. That has held us
up for some time and we have been lobbying both the Welsh Assembly
Government and the Home Office hard to try to make sure that is
ironed out. We had a similar struggle with our first PFI scheme.
That took a long time to clear—which would not have been
the case in England. There are a number of occasions when police
forces feel that they are disadvantaged against England in terms
of the way in which grants are approved and so on. It is very
difficult to bottom those out because I have no doubt there will
be police forces in the north-east of England and other places
which feel exactly the same thing, that they are disadvantaged.
The same thing is true in the education sphere. I regularly hear
teachers and teachers' unions complaining that there are many
more initiatives in England than there are in Wales, and the Welsh
Assembly Government will say that they put more money into basic
funding for education rather than top-slicing much off for different
competitive grant schemes. The same is true of the police service.
I am not sure we are capable of proving whether or not those outcomes
really are empirically measurable. However, I think there is no
doubt that those feelings exist. There is a feeling at various
levels amongst officials that the police service in Wales is already
to some extent devolved and a confusion over whether or not some
of the responsibilities are already with the Welsh Assembly Government.
Q333 Mrs Williams: I would like to turn
to funding, Mr King. You express concern in paragraph 5.11 that
as a result of complexities to the funding system, bids invited
from Westminster Departments for specific grants may not always
be available to Welsh forces and authorities. Could you explain
to us this morning in a little more detail why this is the case.
Mr King: I think I have probably
just answered that in my answer to the previous question. I have
just referred to the PFI scheme, for instance, and there are a
number of instances where for police forces in Wales—but
I have also heard the same thing said amongst chairs of police
authorities in England—the competition for various grants
has not worked out in their favour. Without doing a pretty broad
study of the whole subject, I suppose those feelings have to be
left as perceptions rather than something which can be empirically
measured.
Q334 Mr Caton: In your evidence to the
Richard Commission you did not talk about feelings of things "not
being bottomed out" but said that there was evidence that
some bids, invited from Westminster departments for tackling crime
and disorder, are not always available to the Welsh forces and
the police authorities. Are you saying now that that evidence
does not exist?
Mr King: We raised that matter
with the Assembly Government minister Mrs Hart and I do recall
some research going into that—and this is two or three years
ago now—and, from memory, that was inconclusive. I think
there was some evidence that some grants did not seem to find
their way to Wales as easily as they did with other parts of England,
but I think, when examined, it was hard to be absolutely conclusive
about that. I think it is true to say that some evidence exists.
I have not personally questioned the officials concerned and looked
in depth at each area that those answers have been given and say
whether I would be personally convinced by the answers.
Q335 Mr Caton: This is the sort of thing
that this inquiry has been set up to try to investigate. Can you
point us in the direction where we might be able to get hold of
evidence ourselves?
Mr King: Not immediately, but
I can certainly go back to those discussions that we held a couple
of years or so ago and some very specific examples given of specific
funding schemes where it was felt Welsh forces did not get a fair
look.
Q336 Mr Caton: We would be very grateful.
Mr King: I can certainly supply
that information to you.
Q337 Mrs Williams: In paragraph 5.12—and
you have touched upon this as well, but perhaps I might ask a
question on it—you note the need for clarity in the division
of power between Westminster and Cardiff to ensure the needs of
Wales are addressed and sufficient funding is made available.
What exactly needs to be clarified at this point?
Mr King: I have mentioned the
issue about the PFI: that is a major issue in Wales and it is
not at all clear. A different emphasis is put in Wales on PFI
than it is in England. We have been building the things that we
want to be in North Wales—
Q338 Mrs Williams: How could this be
achieved?
Mr King: By a closer dialogue
between the Treasury in England—would it be the Treasury
or the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister?—and the Welsh
Assembly Government.
Q339 Mrs Williams: Does the increased
focus on community issues and services imply additional financial
responsibility for the National Assembly for Wales? If that is
the case, does the Home Office capital spend in Wales or the funding
formula require review, in your view?
Mr King: I do not think I am sufficiently
knowledgeable to be able to say whether or not the whole funding
position needs to be reviewed. Certainly this is one example of
it being unsatisfactory at the moment and a clear disadvantage
to Wales.
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