Formal Minutes
WEDNESDAY 23 FEBRUARY 2005
Members present:
Sir Archy Kirkwood, in the Chair
| Vera Baird | Mr David Hamilton
|
| Miss Anne Begg | Mrs Joan Humble
|
| Ms Karen Buck | Rob Marris
|
| Mr Andrew Dismore | Andrew Selous
|
| Mr Paul Goodman | |
The Committee deliberated.
Draft Report [The Introduction of Pension Credit], proposed by
the Chairman, brought up and read.
Ordered, that the draft
report be read a second time, paragraph by paragraph.
Report Highlights read and postponed.
Paragraphs 1 to 6 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 7 read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 8 to 10 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 11 read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraph 12 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 13 read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraph 14 read and agreed to.
Paragraphs 15 and 16 read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 17 and 18 read and agreed to.
Paragraphs 19 and 20 read, combined and agreed to
(now paragraph 19).
Paragraphs 21 and 22 (now paragraphs 20 and 21) read,
amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 23 to 27 (now paragraphs 22 to 26) read
and agreed to.
Paragraph 28 (now paragraph 27) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraphs 29 and 30 (now paragraphs 28 and 29) read
and agreed to.
An amendment proposed, to leave out paragraphs 31
to 33 (now paragraphs 30 to 32) and paragraphs 36 to 40 (now paragraphs
35 to 44) and insert the following new paragraphs:
Witnesses reported a variety of reasons for the errors
and delays which affected the minority of customers. Some delays
were as a result of application forms being returned for signature
which were either blank or contained the wrong information. The
Pension Service's accuracy rate for Pension Credit claims is 90.9%,
below its target of 94%. DWP's accuracy rates are checked internally
and then audited by the National Audit Office.
There were concerns that too many pensioners missed
out on entitlement to the additional amounts in Pension Credit
which are associated with entitlement to a Disability or Carer's
benefit. In some cases, the additional amount appeared to be the
fact that Pension Service staff had not alerted pensioners to
their potential entitlement to the qualifying benefit. Pension
Service staff's knowledge in these more complex areas - and in
particular, regarding the conditions of entitlement to Disability
and Carer's benefits - was criticised by a number of witnesses
as being too limited.
Citizen's Advice also highlighted problems of poor
knowledge of the rules for Savings Credit and of the different
effects the Guarantee and Savings Credit hove on the capital limit
for Housing and Council Tax Benefit.
When delays and errors do occur, they seems to take
some time to resolve. Help the Aged claim that 'customers find
it can be difficult to get an individual member of staff to take
responsibility for resolving problems and communication could
be improved.' Pensioners wishing to query errors or delays have
to phone Pension Centres for which there is no freephone number.
Citizens Advice reported that such phone calls could be lengthy.
The introduction of Pension Credit has gone smoothly
and the Pension Service has provided a good quality of service
for many pensioners. The Committee recommends that further work
is necessary to improve the accuracy and quality of completed
claim forms being sent out to claimants.
The Committee recommends that procedures for revising
incorrect decisions should be reviewed.
The Committee recommends that in the course of its
audit of accuracy of Pension Credit awards, the NAO should investigate
and publish the extent of inaccuracy due to undiscovered entitlement
to 'qualifying benefits' such as Attendance Allowance and Carer's
Allowance.
The Committee recommends that new technology allowing
award letters to be amended by staff should be prioritised and
customer representative groups consulted on future output.
The Committee recommends that the Department review
the information, training, and supervision provided to Pension
Service Staff to ensure they are able to provide good quality
information on more complex issues and on disability and carer's
benefits. - (Miss Anne Begg)
Question put that the amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
| Ayes, 2 | Noes, 6
|
| Miss Anne Begg | Vera Baird
|
| Rob Marris | Mr Andrew Dismore
|
| Mr Paul Goodman
|
| Mr David Hamilton
|
| Mrs Joan Humble
|
| Andrew Selous
|
Paragraphs 31 to 40 (now paragraphs 30 to 44) read,
amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 41 to 43 (now paragraphs 45 to 47) read
and agreed to.
Paragraph 44 (now paragraph 48) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraph 45 (now paragraph 49) read and agreed to.
Paragraph 46 (now paragraph 50) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraphs 47 to 49 ( now paragraphs 51 to 53) read
and agreed to.
Paragraph 50 (now paragraph 54) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraph 51 ( now paragraph 55) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 52 (now paragraph 56) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraphs 53 to 56 (now paragraphs 57 to 60) read
and agreed to.
Paragraph 57 (now paragraph 61) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraphs 58 and 59 (now paragraphs 62 and 63) read
and agreed to.
Paragraph 60 (now paragraph 64) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraphs 61 and 62 (now paragraphs 65 and 66) read
and agreed to.
Paragraph 63 (now paragraph 67) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraphs 64 and 65 (now paragraphs 68 and 69) read
and agreed to.
Paragraphs 66 to 69 (now paragraphs 70 to 73) read,
amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 70 and 71(now paragraphs 74 and 75) read
and agreed to.
Paragraph 72 read as follows:
The Committee concludes that, supported by more efficient
business processes and given some decline in workloads, the Pension
Service should be able to make some staff reductions by 2006.
The Committee recommends that the Department publishes the case
for staff reductions to 14,605 posts, to help increase confidence
that the process is achievable. The Committee further recommends
that the business case for staff reductions should include a strategy
to deal with identified weaknesses in administration such as the
level of emerging backlogs.
Paragraph disagreed to.
A paragraph - (Rob Marris) - brought up, read
the first and second time and inserted (now paragraph 76).
Paragraph 73 (now paragraph 77) read and agreed to.
Paragraph 74 (now paragraph 78) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraphs 75 to 77 (now paragraphs 79 to 81) read
and agreed to.
Paragraph 78 (now paragraph 82) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraphs 79 to 83 (now paragraphs 83 to 87) read
and agreed to.
Paragraph 84 read as follows:
The Committee is extremely concerned about the impact
of change on this scale on staff to deliver a quality service
to pensioners. We urge the Government to make an announcement
on the share of cuts across DWP as soon as possible. Staff at
non-transformation Pension Centres should be kept informed throughout
the process of change.
Paragraph disagreed to.
A paragraph - (Rob Marris) - brought up ,
read the first and second time, amended and inserted (now paragraph
88).
Paragraphs 85 to 91 (now paragraphs 89 to 95) read
and agreed to.
Paragraph 92 (now paragraph 96) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraph 93 (now paragraph 97) read and agreed to.
Paragraph 94 read as follows:
The Committee recommends that there should be more
consultation with national and local partners and no further reductions
in front-line Local service staff.
Paragraph disagreed to.
A paragraph - (Rob Marris) - brought up ,
read the first and second time , amended and inserted (now paragraph
98).
Paragraph 95 (now paragraph 99) read and agreed to.
Paragraph 96 (now paragraph 100) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraphs 97 to 99 (now paragraphs 101 to 103) read
and agreed to.
Paragraphs 100 to 102 (now paragraphs 104 to 106)
read, amended and agreed to .
Paragraphs 103 and 104 (now paragraphs 107 and 108)
read and agreed to.
Paragraph 105 (now paragraph 109) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraphs 106 to 108 (now paragraphs 110 to 112)
read and agreed to.
Paragraph 109 (now paragraph 113) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraphs 110 and 111 (now paragraphs 114 and 115)
read and agreed to.
Paragraph 112 (now paragraph 116) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraphs 113 to 116 (now paragraphs 117 to 120)
read and agreed to.
Paragraph 117 (now paragraph 121) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraphs 118 to 122 (now paragraphs 122 to 126)
read and agreed to.
Paragraphs 123 and 124 (now paragraphs 127 to 128)
read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 125 and 126 (now paragraphs 129 to 130)
read and agreed to.
Paragraph 127 (now paragraph 131) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraph 128 read, amended, divided and agreed to
(now paragraphs 132 to 136).
Paragraph 129 (now paragraph 137) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraphs 130 and 131 (now paragraphs 138 and 139)
read and agreed to.
Paragraphs 132 to 134 (now paragraphs 140 to 142)
read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 135 to 137 (now paragraphs 143 to 145)
read and agreed to.
Paragraph 138 (now paragraph 146) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraphs 139 and 140 (now paragraphs 147 and 148)
read and agreed to.
Paragraphs 141 and 142 (now paragraphs 149 and 150)
read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraph 143 (now paragraph 151) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 144 (now paragraph 152) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraphs 145 to 149 (now paragraphs 153 to 157)
read and agreed to.
A paragraph - (Miss Anne Begg) - brought up,
read the first and second time and inserted (now paragraph 158).
Paragraphs 150 and 151 (now paragraphs 159 and 160)
read, divided, combined, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 152 and 153 (now paragraphs 161 and 162)
read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraph 154 (now paragraph 163) read and agreed
to.
Paragraphs 155 to 157 (now paragraphs 164 to 166)
read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraph 158 (now paragraph 167) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 159 (now paragraph 168) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraph 160 (now paragraph 169) read and agreed
to.
Paragraphs 161 and 162 (now paragraphs 170 and 171)
read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraph 163 (now paragraph 172) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 164 (now paragraph 173) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraphs 165 and 166 (now paragraphs 174 and 175)
read and agreed to.
Paragraphs 167 and 168 ( now paragraphs 176 and 177)
read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 169 and 170 (now paragraphs 178 and 179)
read and agreed to.
A paragraph - (Rob Marris) - brought up ,
read the first and second time, amended and inserted (now paragraph
180).
Paragraph 171 (now paragraph 181) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraphs 172 to 175 (now paragraphs 182 to 185)
read and agreed to.
Paragraph 176 (now paragraph 186) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraph 177 (now paragraph 187) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 178 (now paragraph 188) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraph 179 (now paragraph 189) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 180 (now paragraph 190) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraphs 181 and 182 (now paragraphs 191 and 192)
read and agreed to.
Paragraph 183 (now paragraph 193) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraphs 184 and 185 (now paragraphs 194 and 195)
read and agreed to.
Paragraph 186 (now paragraph 196) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraphs 187 (now paragraph 197) read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 188 (now paragraph 198) read, amended and
agreed to.
Paragraphs 189 and 190 (now paragraphs 199 and 200)
read and agreed to.
Paragraph 191 (now paragraph 201) read as follows:
On 2 February 2005, the Secretary of State said that
the Government would 'set out the principles on which we will
base our pension reforms separately in the near future.' The Committee
recommends that, in order to help individuals plan ahead, the
Government should provide details of the likely direction of future
reform and some indication of when this might be possible, for
example at what time the current primary focus of eradicating
abject pensioner poverty might be sufficiently met.
Amendment proposed, at the end, to insert:
We would like to see a more substantial role for
measures that would encourage saving more effectively and would
allow most people to avoid means-testing. - (Mr Paul Goodman)
Question put, that the amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
| Ayes, 1 | Noes, 7
|
| Mr Paul Goodman | Vera Baird
|
| Miss Anne Begg
|
| Ms Karen Buck
|
| Mr Andrew Dismore
|
| Mr David Hamilton
|
| Mrs Joan Humble
|
| Rob Marris
|
Another amendment proposed, at the end, to insert:
For decades before the Savings Credit was introduced,
there was effectively a 100% tax on savings. Now there is a 40%
rate which may still discouraging people from putting money aside
for retirement. We would like to see it eventually replaced with
a system that would allow more people to avoid means-testing.
- (Rob Marris)
Question put, that the amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
| Ayes, 3 | Noes, 5
|
| Mr Paul Goodman | Vera Baird
|
| Mr David Hamilton | Miss Anne Begg
|
| Rob Marris | Ms Karen Buck
|
| Mr Andrew Dismore
|
| Mrs Joan Humble
|
Paragraph agreed to.
Paragraph 192 (now paragraph 202) read and agreed
to.
Paragraphs 193 and 194 (now paragraphs 203 and 204)
read, amended and agreed to.
Annexes A and B read, amended and agreed to.
An Annex [Annex C] - (The Chairman) - brought
up and read, the first and second time, and added.
Postponed Report Highlights read, amended and agreed
to.
Resolved, that the report,
as amended, be the Third Report of the Committee to the House.
Ordered, That the provisions
of Standing Order No. 134 (Select Committees (Reports)) be applied
to the Report.
Ordered, That the Minutes
of Evidence taken before the Committee, together with Appendices
to the Minutes of Evidence, be reported to the House. - (The
Chairman)
[Adjourned till Wednesday 9 March at half-past Nine
o'clock.
| 
