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Mrs. Ellman: In the light of the Minister's assurances I feel more confident that our views have been listened to. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Mr. Chope: The Minister made it clear that the clause applies not only to speeding offences. What other offences will it apply to and what will be the time scale for introducing proposals in relation to the other offences?
Mr. Jamieson: It would apply to any other offences that would attract a fixed penalty. There is a range of offences, and I gave some examples in response to my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough. When the Bill has received Royal Assent, we will have to examine carefully which offences would be appropriate for proposals either for the slight reduction that I mentioned earlier, or, more importantly, whether to introduce a greater penalty for those who flagrantly exceed the speed limit and excessively commit offences and break the law. We will have to consider whether we can impose greater penalties and larger fines.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 4
Giving of fixed penalty notices by vehicle examiners
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Mr. Jamieson: The clause introduces schedule 1, which will allow the vehicle examiners from the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency—VOSA—an agency of the Department for Transport, to issue fixed penalty notices in respect of those offences for which they have enforcement powers. The schedule will also empower VOSA to deal with other matters connected to the operation of the fixed-penalty system on behalf of the Secretary of State. The right of the recipient of a fixed penalty notice to request a court hearing would not be affected.
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Schedule 1 makes various amendments to part 3 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988—fixed penalties—in order to give VOSA vehicle examiners similar fixed- penalty powers to those of the police. The vehicle examiners, who are appointed under section 66A of the Road Traffic Act 1988, will have to produce their authorisation.
In addition, the amendments empower the Secretary of State to set up and administer a new system, similar to the one administered by the fixed-penalty clerks under part 3, to collect payment for fixed penalties and endorse driving licences, where the penalty includes endorsement. These new powers will be exercised through VOSA.
Sections 57 and 76 of the 1988 Act are amended to empower the Secretary of State to inspect and endorse the licences, without the involvement of the court—unless the points threshold for disqualification has been reached—of those drivers who have been issued with a fixed penalty notice for an endorsable offence. The driver to whom the fixed penalty is issued will be required to surrender their licence to the administration office of VOSA for endorsement action within a specified time.
Section 75 of the 1988 Act is amended to allow the VOSA examiners to issue conditional offers for those offences that are detected remotely, in line with existing police practice. It is also amended to allow for the different fixed penalty system in Scotland, whereby fixed penalty notices are substituted by conditional offers.
Mr. Wilshire: For the sake of clarity, I wonder whether the Minister was straying into discussing clause 4 and schedule 1 at the same time. I do not want to say anything about schedule 1 at the moment, but I hope that we will not be precluded from having a separate debate on it.
The Chairman: I will put the second Question separately, so the hon. Gentleman will be able to speak on it. We are speaking to clause 4.
Mr. Wilshire: I am grateful to you, Mr. Pike. Although I have been in the House of Commons for a long time—some would say too long—I am still, as a layman, mystified by the process of legislation. I imagine Bills as determining something, as most clauses do. Clause 4 simply says
''Schedule 1 contains provision about the giving of fixed penalty notices''.
How riveting that is. What on earth do we need the clause for? It does not add anything to legislation or take anything away from it. It is self-evident that schedule 1 exists—I can find it. Do we really need signposts littered about legislation that say, ''If you look carefully, you will find schedule 1 further on''? In that case, why do we not have clauses that say, ''If you keep reading, you'll find clause 6 and schedule 9''?. It seems to me unnecessary.
The Minister is too nice and gentle a man to lecture me about being otiose, but his colleague in the Department is well used to using such abrasive language about anything that I suggest. Perhaps on
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this occasion, if the Minister spoke to the Minister of State, he would find him also saying that the clause is unnecessary.
Mr. Jamieson: As I understand it, the point is that, because the schedule refers to this part of the Bill, we need the clause to refer to the schedule and demonstrate that it is there. The hon. Gentleman felt that that was otiose. I am not sure whether it is and I think that other Bills do exactly the same thing, and have done so for a long time. A clause often refers to a schedule. That is not a recent thing. It is true that, in other clauses, more issues are often referred to as well. However, I do not think that we should be surprised by the clause. I am sure that we can draw the clause to the attention of those who wrote the Bill and, if there is any way in which drafting can be improved, I would be the first to want to learn from that.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 1
Giving of fixed penalty notices by vehicle examiners etc.
Question proposed, That this schedule be the First schedule to the Bill.
Mr. Chope: I ask the Minister to set out what the policy of the Department will be on the exercise of discretion as to whether to impose penalties under the powers set out in the schedule. There is much concern that, as soon as we get into the fixed-penalty regime, discretion will go out of the window. As a result, there would be much rough justice. I hope that the Minister will assure us that it is not the intention of the Department that every breach of any regulation that is governed by the schedule will automatically result in the imposition of a fixed penalty and that common sense and discretion will be applied in generous measure.
I also ask him about the mechanics of the handling of licences that must be endorsed. It is one thing to say, ''You can take your licence to a police station for endorsement'', because the person will probably have some control about when they get their licence back. In the schedule, we are talking—largely—about a group of professional drivers. If they have to send their licence to a department for endorsement, it may be difficult for them to continue to operate as drivers without having a licence available to them. I would be grateful if the Minister could give some assurances about the time scales in which those licences will be returned. The circumstances would be different if a penalty involved disqualification, but in the routine case of an endorsement somebody might be without their licence for a fairly long time, which could be a serious problem for a professional driver.
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Mr. Wilshire: I do not want to get into the minutiae of the provisions. I listened carefully to what the Minister said the schedule does, but what he did not say—I can guess the answer, but it might be helpful to have it on the record—is why he thinks making the change is a good idea. I am not against such a change in principle, but I always become anxious when more people are put in a position in which they can prosecute or penalise motorists, because enough people can do that already.
We had such discussions during a previous Bill about a new set of people on motorways and the powers that they would have, including being able to issue tickets. Similar discussions have also taken place with regard to community support officers and the police. I am worried that far too often we say that another group of people as well as the police should be able to enforce the law, take action against criminals and issue notices. Before I accept that the change is a good idea, I want the Minister to tell us why he wants to add another group of people and not leave it to the tried and tested ways of doing things. I do not necessarily buy into the fact that it is just matter of convenience, so I will listen with interest.
Mr. Jamieson: The points raised are good ones. We have to remember that VOSA almost exclusively enforces against heavy goods vehicles rather than general members of the public, and it has been using its discretion over the years in its activities.
The hon. Member for Spelthorne asked why the change was a good idea. Over the 20-odd years since vehicle inspectors were brought in, a degree of professionalism among those carrying out this work has developed. I have been out with them on motorways and seen some of the work that they do. They are extremely capable and professional people who work within clearly set out codes of conduct. Their presence is well known in the HGV community, and their powers and responsibilities are well understood. The vast majority of operators and drivers who operate safely and carefully are pleased that VOSA inspectors are taking action against the minority who cut corners—often competing more cheaply because of it—and put other people's lives at risk. People plough along motorways very close to each other, and most are pleased that action is being taken against those who drive without proper brakes or with other unsuitable mechanical features on their vehicle.
VOSA operators work under a code of practice that sets out powers relating to stopping vehicles. They currently operate those powers but the police have to impose penalties. This is another example of a civilian force of good quality, professional people that can take some of the load off the police so that they can concentrate on other types of criminality. Some tasks, such as inspecting vehicles and testing brakes, can be done quite properly by a highly skilled, competent civilian force, which, indeed, it is.
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On the question of endorsed licences, VOSA has access to the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency register. The record will be passed on to the register. As is the case for the police and other agencies that deal with licences, they will be rapidly returned to the owners. I see no reason why that process should operate any differently. We are not talking about the same quantity that the police deal with, because they deal with car drivers. We are talking about relatively fewer vehicles in this case, but they are HGV vehicles, and VOSA tends to have a good relationship with the HGV community. Nevertheless, I shall consider that matter further; it is a good point.
The measure will take some of the load from the police, and this force, which is currently doing a good job, will be further improved and enhanced.
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