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Mr. Chope: I am grateful to the Minister for his response. My right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight) will want to say something on clause stand part about the provisions of paragraph (e) as it is to be amended. The Minister said that the role of fixed penalty clerks is already established in legislation. However, the question that I put to him, which I do not think he has answered, concerned the fact that paragraph (a) refers to ''courts'', which are buildings, but the provision relates to people employed by the Court Service. My understanding is that fixed penalty clerks are employed by the service, in which case they should be covered by paragraph (a). If they are employed by the police, they would not be covered by paragraph (b) because they are not constables.
I do not want to insult anybody who is a fixed penalty clerk, but it seems to be a relatively low-level appointment. I would be grateful if the Minister clarified, not necessarily today, the terms and conditions of service. At present clerks can check the individual counterpart only to see whether it has nine points on it or 12. The provision would give them the power to look at the driving records of everybody in the country, which is a different order of authority. I hope that the Minister will be able to allay our concerns that fixed penalty clerks may not be of sufficient seniority to take on that responsibility without being incorporated in the Court Service.
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I am glad that the Minister has explained the definition of prescribed persons and the lacuna in the law that has been identified. The debate has again highlighted the fact that much in the Bill gives the impression that the Government are producing an instant solution to criminality and fraud committed by drivers and road users, but it is clear from what the Minister said that any changes linking all these records under clause 9 are at least five years down the track. The Minister will know of the Government's recent disclosure that they have not even managed to draw up a comprehensive, computerised register of all those who have applied for and obtained gun licences, a much smaller category than people with driving licences and records. As that process has taken some seven years and is still not complete, I suspect that to make driving records available in the way that the Minister describes is even further down the track than five years.
If the Minister wants to rise again to say something about fixed penalty clerks, that will be helpful; I hope that he will. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment made: No. 62, in clause 7, page 5, line 6, leave out 'prescribed persons' and insert
'persons pre-scribed in regulations made by the Secretary of State.
(3) The power to make regulations under subsection (2)(e) above shall be exercisable by statutory instrument.
(4) A statutory instrument containing regulations made under subsection (2)(e) above shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.'. —[Mr. Jamieson]
Question proposed, That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.
Mr. Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): I find the wording of the clause, particularly paragraph (b), rather strange. Why have those who drafted the Bill decided that it should refer only to constables and not to police officers? It creates the bizarre situation that a police constable can lawfully access a driving record, yet a sergeant, an inspector, a chief inspector, a deputy chief constable or a chief constable who did so would be breaking the law. I find that strange. Why does paragraph (b) not refer to a ''police officer''? I should be grateful to hear what the Minister has to say about that.
I did not find convincing the Minister's reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch about why paragraph (e) should remain in the clause. The Minister said that it was in case there were a group of people who it was felt should have access to the records, but he was not able to identify the sort of group he had in mind. Will he give us an example of a group of people who, in future, he might feel should have access to driving records?
9.45 am
Mr. Jamieson: The clause inserts new section 97A into the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988. It introduces the concept of a driving record held by the Secretary of State and designed for endorsement of particulars of offences. It will enable a new system to be established allowing fixed penalty notices to be given to drivers who do not have counterpart licences. It is intended that this alternative system will be introduced in two stages. Clause 8 and schedule 2 provide for the first stage of the new system, and clause 9 and schedule 3 provide for the second stage, which introduces the new system of endorsement of driving records for all drivers.
Clause 7 means that the driving record, like the counterpart to the driving licence, will be an official record of a driver's endorsement history, and it will enable fixed penalty notices to be given to drivers who do not have counterpart licences. Subsection (2) specifies those persons who may have access to information held on a person's driving record. The important point for the hon. Member for Christchurch and the right hon. Member for East Yorkshire is that, in practice, those are the same people who currently have access to information held on the counterpart. The existing law will be replicated in the Bill. Those people include the driver and persons whom the driver authorises to see the information, courts, constables and fixed penalty clerks. The DVLA is putting in place secure electronic and telephonic links to ensure that the information is available, and those links should be in place by the end of 2007.
Mr. Knight: Is the Minister really saying that if I am stopped for speeding by a police sergeant who then accesses my record, I could bring a private prosecution because he has no right to do so? It seems incredible to me that ''constable'' is used in the clause and not ''police officer''.
Mr. Jamieson: Sadly, the right hon. Gentleman will not have that defence available to him, because the reference to ''constable'' appears in all legislation going back a long way—probably before my time in the House, but certainly before the right hon. Gentleman's time. It is a standard reference in legislation to the police; it is not unique to this Bill.
The hon. Member for Christchurch asked about the role of the fixed penalty clerks. They are employed by their courts, and their role has been specifically provided for in legislation that predates not only this Government but that of 1992. I think that it comes from the hon. Gentleman's time, and I was rather hoping that he would tell us more about it. It has been included in previous legislation, and we must replicate it in the Bill, so that cross-referencing can take place.
Mr. Adrian Flook (Taunton) (Con): The Minister may know, as it is in his next-door county, that Taunton Deane magistrates court looks after the fixed penalty points system for the whole of Avon and Somerset. Does that mean that there are fixed penalty
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clerks based only at Taunton Deane magistrates court and nowhere else within the Avon and Somerset magistrates court service?
Mr. Jamieson: I cannot give the hon. Gentleman detailed information about the court service in Somerset or Devon for that matter, but I am sure that if he cares to inquire of the appropriate Department it will be able to provide him with that information.
Mr. Knight: I am not entirely satisfied with the Minister's response. The fact that reference has been made to ''a constable'' in the past is not a satisfactory answer. It seems to me that the provision could and should be improved by referring to a serving police officer. Will the Minister reflect on that between now and Report? It is odd that only one rank of police officer will be able to access the records.
Mr. Jamieson: All I can say is that I am satisfied that this Bill follows the example of previous legislation, going back a long way, in referring to ''a constable''. That term is not just enshrined in the law, but has habitually been used in practice in the system. Far be it from me to come here and overturn many years of history.
Mr. Knight: You sound like a Conservative.
Mr. Jamieson: Oh, thank you.
Mr. David Kidney (Stafford) (Lab): May I just help the Minister by pointing out that ''constable'' is an office, not a rank? Every police officer is a constable, right up to the top one, who retains the name in the title ''chief constable''.
Mr. Jamieson: Where would we be without my hon. Friend? I am grateful to him for his enormous assistance, and with that I hope that hon. Members will accept the clause.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 7, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 8
Unlicensed and foreign drivers
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Mr. Knight: I want to ask the Minister a question. There is a reference in the clause to a person who is not the holder of a licence. What is the status of the document that is called an international driving permit? I have never held one; I have driven in other parts of Europe on my UK driving licence, but I understand that if I wish, I can apply for an international driving permit. If a person produces one of those in the UK, would it be deemed to be a licence under the clause?
Mr. Jamieson: The clause gives effect to schedule 2, which we shall come to shortly. The clause and schedule introduce a new system of endorsement for
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unlicensed and foreign drivers who do not hold a counterpart to the driving licence. That will bring them into the fixed penalty system. The clause enables enforcers to check the driving records of such drivers when issuing a fixed penalty, removing the need for the counterpart to be checked. Bringing those drivers within the fixed penalty system will make it easier to take action against them should they offend. Furthermore, the threat of being issued with a fixed penalty will provide an increased deterrent.
The clause mainly deals with those who do not have a licence or anything that can be checked. The police are able to check a driving record by using their computer, which is linked to the DVLA computer, without having to examine a counterpart. Information can be put on that record and checked in the future so that even someone with no licence—who can get away with it at the moment because no record is kept—can be checked.
The international driving permit has to be presented with the foreign licence to be valid. To use the permit, one has to have a licence from one's country of origin. There may be those who cannot produce the licence at all, but if they have a permit they would have had to produce a licence at some stage, so they must have one. The clause deals with those who do not have the counterpart, which would be foreign drivers who did not have a licence at all.
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