House of Commons Standing Committee A (pt 12)

Road Safety Bill

Mr. Knight: I am grateful to the Minister for his comprehensive reply, and for placing on record his view that there may be occasions when members of the armed forces need to exceed the speed limit. He was honest and fair enough to tell the Committee that he would be prepared to look at other exemptions and to consider representations. I do not think, quite honestly, that I could ask for more. The Minister has

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satisfied me that he is not going to restrict the ambit of this clause to the groups named on the face of the Bill, and is therefore prepared to consider other exemptions that carry merit. On that basis, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Mr. Chope: This debate gives an opportunity for the Minister to address the issue raised, tangentially, by the hon. Member for Teignbridge in the previous debate. There is currently an enormous amount of bureaucracy involved in sending out fixed penalty notices to the authorities—the police, the fire service, doctors and so on—when someone has gone over the limit as noted by a speed camera. As I understand it, because there is effectively no discretion at that level, the driver then has to write back and explain the circumstances. There is a good reason for that, of course, because the exemption from the speed limit only applies to vehicles which are being used for the purpose of that particular enterprise. So a police vehicle which is not on police duty but exceeds the speed limit is not exempt. There is an enormous amount of bureaucracy involved in all this, however. I wondered if the Minister could explain what is being done within this Bill to reduce that bureaucracy, which I understand is quite significant.

Can the Minister also deal with the issue of people using defensive driving techniques? Certainly, during the lifetime of this Government, I think it was the Home Secretary who was being driven far in excess of the speed limit down an open motorway to the west country; going to a Labour party conference, if my memory serves me right. The Home Secretary's driver was able to argue that this was defensive driving, maybe because he was going near the Minister's home. I do not know where it was, but somewhere in the west country. Being serious about this, to what extent does the Minister feel that there is one law for drivers in that type of situation, and another for all the other ordinary motorists?

Richard Younger-Ross: Further to the point raised by the Conservatives, my understanding is that if the blue light is clearly flashing when the camera takes the photograph, a ticket will not be issued, because it is clear that it is an emergency vehicle responding to an emergency. Could the bureaucracy be cut if, instead of just relying on the fixed light, emergency vehicles had a permanent light on the back which would indicate they were on their way to an emergency? Therefore, when the camera took its photograph, it would be clear that they were on their way to an emergency, saving the ticket office and emergency services time in not having to respond.

Mr. Jamieson: The hon. Member for Christchurch talked about the bureaucracy for fixed penalties. This is an important issue, and I will certainly look at the idea the hon. Member for Teignbridge has raised as a possible solution. It may be that it creates more problems and costs than the other way around, but we

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obviously have to find a balance. That is a useful suggestion, and we will certainly look at it.

It is important, even for the police, the fire service and the ambulance service—who have a dispensation to exceed the speed limit in certain circumstances—that they demonstrate that there is good reason why they are doing so.

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I am sad to say that there are many casualties on our roads while vehicles are on blue lights. There was a dreadful case the other side of the river a year or so ago, near to where I abide during the week, when a blue light vehicle on the way to an event that did not involve risk to life killed somebody. It is important that, on every occasion when such vehicles exceed the speed limit and go through the cameras, they demonstrate that they are on a genuine blue light service and are not going fast simply because they have chosen to do so. Therefore, they must obey the law, but on occasions society gives them dispensation because of the work they do on our behalf.

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The hon. Member for Christchurch referred to a doctor. I do not think that there would be any dispensation for a doctor, but if a police officer caught him, he might use discretion, and the court may have some discretion over the fine, although not over the penalty points. However, generally people in that position need to keep within the law.

A range of other organisations has expressed an interest. Customs and Excise often enforces the law, particularly on such things as drugs. Other groups include the Secret Service, the special forces, MOD bomb disposal vehicles and MOD naval nuclear accident teams, which are dear to my heart. Such groups may apply for a dispensation and may look to receive one.

I hope that the Committee will therefore agree to include the clause in the Bill.

Question agreed to.

Clause 18 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Further consideration adjourned.—[Gillian Merron.]

Committee adjourned at twenty-eight minutes to Six o'clock till Thursday 27 January at twenty-five minutes past Nine o'clock.