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Mr. Knight: I understand my hon. Friend's concerns about this, but I have to tell him that I am in the unenviable position of finding myself between him and the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central. I start from the premise that greater knowledge is generally a good thing. When looking at people who have control of something that weighs two tonnes and is capable of travelling at 80 mph it seems to be common sense that drivers should have some basic knowledge of first aid. One could argue that pedestrians should have the same knowledge and perhaps this is something that we should consider bringing into the school curriculum. Like the hon. Gentleman, I am not sure that this is the correct mechanism with which to bring this about.
I would be interested to hear what the Minister has to say, because the greater knowledge one has of first aid when one is in a situation where one is likely to encounter people who need treatment can only be a good thing. I wondered what our European partners are doing in this regard and whether there was any development there. I was surprised last year—[Interruption.] What did my hon. Friend say?
Mr. Wilshire: I was just saying to myself that I hope this is not a plea for a further Brussels directive on something.
Mr. Knight: Far be it from me to plea for a Brussels directive, but I do think that we can learn from other nation states and should continue to do so. I was about to say, before the sotto voce mumblings reached my ear, that I was in Spain towards the end of last year. I was surprised to see that they now have a requirement that every vehicle must carry within it a yellow jacket. In the event of a breakdown, when it is necessary to get out of the car and stand on the highway, the jacket must be worn. It seemed to be a sensible idea, particularly bearing in mind the number of people who are injured or killed when their car breaks down and they find themselves having to change a wheel or whatever at the side of the road. In the last five years I have owned two vehicles—a BMW and a Vauxhall—where a first aid kit was part of the standard package of the car. I say well done BMW and Vauxhall.
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Perhaps all the manufacturers should provide a first aid kit with the vehicles they sell, but it is no good doing that if the driver does not know what to do with it. Therefore, as I look at the amendments, I find myself moving more towards the Stoke-on-Trent position and away from my hon. Friend's, because knowledge here could save lives. I am well aware that in some cases a little knowledge can be a bad thing, but the Government should at least do some work to see whether it should be made part of the driving test.
Mr. Chope: Will my right hon. Friend take note of the fact that drivers are not the only road users? There are also pedestrians and cyclists. As most accidents take place in built-up areas and quite often involve pedestrians and children, why should all road users not be required to have the same qualifications?
Mr. Knight: That is a fair point. It is certainly something that the Government should look at. Best practice dictates that those on the public highway should have some knowledge of basic first aid.
It is not strictly within the ambit of the amendments, but I hope that you will allow me to mention this in passing, Mr. Hughes. I also feel that the driving test should do more to ensure that motorists have a basic knowledge of the vehicle that they are driving. I well remember three years ago noticing a car full of young girls stopped by the side of the road, with steam coming out of the bonnet. The girls were very upset and agitated because they realised that they had broken down and thought that there was a fatal problem with the car. They were near the car park of a public house where there was a tap. I stopped to make inquiries and asked them to open the bonnet, and it was simply a question of topping up the radiator. So I was able to show them where the tap was, wait until the car had cooled down and send them on their way.
There are many instances where, because of a minor fault, a car may cause an obstruction and be a potential accident risk. If the driver knew, for example, that he should check that the plug leads were all in place or how to carry out some of the basic maintenance jobs that anyone who has tinkered with a car will know about, that knowledge would be useful.
I hope that the Minister will respond positively to the points made by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central, even if she tells the Committee that, for various reasons, she does not want to go down that route.
John Thurso: I have among my papers the Second Reading brief from the British Red Cross, which answers some of the questions that hon. Gentlemen have posed about what it might be considered practical to include. It says:
''The test itself would be basic and include only the essential knowledge for dealing with the most likely scenarios caused by road accidents: scene management, blocked airway, bleeding and shock.''
It goes on to say:
''Many of the skills required could be learnt in as little as two hours and the British Red Cross would work in collaboration with partner organisations to advise on how this might best be done.''
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Therefore, clearly a relatively brief introduction is envisaged.
The critical point is that some 57 per cent. of fatalities after an accident take place before the emergency services arrive, and it is estimated that about 80 per cent. could be saved by the judicious intervention of first aid. That is why I believe that the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central is right to table this probing amendment and to draw the matter to the Government's attention. I hope that they will find an appropriate balance between making the Bill too burdensome and insisting that people have some knowledge of first aid.
In that regard I want to make two points. First, it was mentioned that pedestrians and cyclists should also have first aid knowledge. However, as it is usually the pedestrian, cyclist or child who has been hit by the car, it is probably more useful to give the driver first aid training.
Mr. Chope: If a pedestrian is knocked down by a car in an urban setting, perhaps on a pedestrian crossing, surely the driver will be in a state of shock. There will be other pedestrians around.
Mr. Knight: The driver might not stop.
Mr. Chope: Indeed. It is important that everyone who uses the road has a basic knowledge of first aid.
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John Thurso: It is important that everyone has a basic knowledge of first aid. In many organisations it is obligatory. Whether it is imposable sensibly, other than via a test for drivers, is another matter.
The second point is that, in a work situation, there is a requirement for a minimum number of trained first-aiders to a much higher standard than the basic that is being suggested in the Bill. I cannot remember the exact figure, but it is so many per 50 employees in the work force. A considerable number of road users are commercial ones; lorry drivers, bus drivers and so on. I wonder whether, as a first step, it is worth considering whether the public service vehicle and heavy goods vehicle licences might benefit from including first aid as a requirement. Perhaps they already do.
Charlotte Atkins: We have had a useful debate. We exposed a few differences of view, not least about European directives. An EU standard is set out in the directive about the content of the test. It includes an element of first aid. We satisfy that requirement by putting a question in the theory test, as do other member states. There is no full-blown directive on the issue, but it is set out as an EU standard in the directive, so Europe has already spoken on the issue.
The amendments have a laudable aim. I am surprised that my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central, who has raised four children, is not aware of basic first aid. I would have thought that having a knowledge of first aid is a basic requirement of being a parent; not that I do, because I was never
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able to take my badge in first aid as a Brownie or a Guide. Those organisations do a marvellous job training youngsters in first aid.
To be of real value, first aid skills need to be held by people who are both competent and confident in the use of first aid principles and are willing to update them on a regular basis. In some circumstances, a little knowledge can be a bad thing. Many organisations run first aid courses and the amendments draw attention to the valuable role that those organisations play.
We should consider the question of commercial drivers taking first aid courses as a first step, because they can be an asset in a motorway accident. Despite the fact that we in Staffordshire have a fantastic ambulance service, my hon. Friend is right that most ambulances would not arrive in eight minutes. That can be crucial to the survival of one of the people involved in the accident.
We are concerned about imposing an additional burden on learner drivers and those seeking to upgrade their driving licences. Part of that burden would be financial. I accept the point that my hon. Friend made. Clearly he has not looked into the costs of the measure but, as with most fixed costs, the first aid training fees would impact particularly on those with low incomes. We want to avoid that. It would be extremely difficult to justify that additional cost on road safety grounds, although I accept that first aid courses would be valuable for other reasons as well.
The purpose of a driving test is, clearly, to establish a person's competence to drive. As I said, we have included questions on first aid and accident handling in the driving theory test. The Government believe that that is the most appropriate way to test candidate's knowledge of first aid. We should encourage drivers to take up first aid courses, but not as a requirement of the test. It would be grossly unfair to deny someone a driving licence when they have passed their theory and practical tests, solely because they have not received the prescribed first aid training. I recognise that it is a probing amendment, and I hope that my hon. Friend will withdraw it.
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